It's funny, because whenever Rosehill is in a game for us, it seems like he almost always gives the other team a chance to win. He was directly responsible for their 2nd goal last night. I remember him taking dumb penalties to kill our powerplays, and give the other teams powerplays at bad times over the past winning stretch of games. He has the odd strong shift, but the overall effort from him I think is horrible. Raffl has no scoring touch, but at least he'd be creating chances, being defensively responsible, battling in trenches, and hitting at least as often as Rosehill.
- JAKEw1234

Do you think Berube has a soft spot for him, given the role they both play(ed)?

I think Rosehill had some pretty good shifts last night.
Not taking the fight from the Isles goon showed some smarts and restraint.
Too bad about getting beat off the face off, that was poor.

hmm

I heard Landeskog and him had one feisty practice where GL hit Downie or something and Downie was supposedly mad because he was returning from an injury or concussion, took exception to the hit and gave GL a hit in return. The rumor was the coaches and GMs were upset with Downie, but I think GL spoke very highly of Downie.

I hope they re sign him, but no more then 3 years without any NTC/NMC included.
What is the going rate for a very good 3rd line winger these days, 3-3.5M?
- Marc D

Read is technically a third liner, but he does provide more defense and plays on the PK. He's also a bit more gifted offensively. I'd say Downey's contract would be in the neighborhood of Reads with one less year.

Do you think Berube has a soft spot for him, given the role they both play(ed)?

I think Rosehill had some pretty good shifts last night.
Not taking the fight from the Isles goon showed some smarts and restraint.
Too bad about getting beat off the face off, that was poor.
- Marc D

I kinda think this might be the case ... Berube might definitely see a little bit of himself in Rosehill-type of players.

here is the quote:

"Well, they might have Downie's fiery attitude to thank for it. Elliotte Friedman of CBC was on the FAN 590 up in Toronto today, where he talked about a hit laid on Gabriel Landeskog back during training camp. Basically, Downie was tripped up by Landeskog and tweaked his knee a bit. Coming off of reconstructive knee surgery, Downie was pissed off at Landeskog's apparent recklessness and decided to voice his displeasure in the form of a huge hit.

Landeskog, obviously, is a prized piece of the puzzle out there in Colorado, and from that point on, the Avs were pretty certain that Downie would be gone at some point this year. Here's Friedman:

I was told that basically the Avalanche had decided that when that happened and Downie was kind of unapologetic about it, that the time was going to come when he was going to get dealt.

I believe Philly was specifically targeted because they knew that Philly would probably have interest, knowing the guy. And the other thing too is that one of Patrick Roy's best friends and coaching buddies is a guy by the name Benoit Groulx. Benoit Groulx and Max Talbot went to the Memorial Cup Finals together and I think Roy had some advice that he was the kind of guy he wanted, and Colorado specifically targeted that deal."
- Marc D

That's such a weird thing to trade a guy over. These guys are around each other 24/7. Little fights or disagreements are going to happen. I don't see how an apology and hug couldn't rectify the situation.

I think Colorado knew they wouldn't resign him and was looking for a defensive forward who was signed for multiple years.

Read is technically a third liner, but he does provide more defense and plays on the PK. He's also a bit more gifted offensively. I'd say Downey's contract would be in the neighborhood of Reads with one less year.
- PhillySportsGuy

Downey is younger then Read but will be UFA.

3.6M.

I would be happy if they re sign him for that, if his good disciplined play continues.

That's such a weird thing to trade a guy over. These guys are around each other 24/7. Little fights or disagreements are going to happen. I don't see how an apology and hug couldn't rectify the situation.

I think Colorado knew they wouldn't resign him and was looking for a defensive forward who was signed for multiple years.
- PhillySportsGuy

yup, who really knows.

we only get bits and pieces of the whole story

For all the griping people do about Schenn and Couturier's struggles, Schenn is on pace for 26 goals and 52 points while Couturier is on pace to finish as a +22 while matching up against the best lines. Couts is also manning the best line on the team right now. Not bad for a 21 and 20 year old, huh?
- PhillySportsGuy

i think people are complaining a lot less as both of these young guys round into form. winning is the cure for everything. i wonder how the team will respond to the eventual lull or bad game(s) that happens. that will be the the true test is how they respond to losing a couple games. i must say that their good play could not have come at a better time for me as i'm struggling in some ways and watching them is really fun again right now

Firstier than you
- PhillySportsGuy

these pretzels are making me firsty

I told ya it was just a matter of time - they'd find their confidence and get rolling...great to see!
- LeftCoaster

thanks boo

hmm

I heard Landeskog and him had one feisty practice where GL hit Downie or something and Downie was supposedly mad because he was returning from an injury or concussion, took exception to the hit and gave GL a hit in return. The rumor was the coaches and GMs were upset with Downie, but I think GL spoke very highly of Downie.

I hope they re sign him, but no more then 3 years without any NTC/NMC included.
What is the going rate for a very good 3rd line winger these days, 3-3.5M?
- Marc D

plz plz plz re sign him

It's funny, because whenever Rosehill is in a game for us, it seems like he almost always gives the other team a chance to win. He was directly responsible for their 2nd goal last night. I remember him taking dumb penalties to kill our powerplays, and give the other teams powerplays at bad times over the past winning stretch of games. He has the odd strong shift, but the overall effort from him I think is horrible. Raffl has no scoring touch, but at least he'd be creating chances, being defensively responsible, battling in trenches, and hitting at least as often as Rosehill.
- JAKEw1234

agree on all counts but this last bit makes sense, you'd be losing nothing and gaining hopefully something

i think people are complaining a lot less as both of these young guys round into form. winning is the cure for everything. i wonder how the team will respond to the eventual lull or bad game(s) that happens. that will be the the true test is how they respond to losing a couple games. i must say that their good play could not have come at a better time for me as i'm struggling in some ways and watching them is really fun again right now
- hogweed

They really need Giroux to get going and start dominating some games. He will be integral if the team is going to survive these long road trips. The Couturier line is playing well, but Giroux are Voracek need to play well in order for this team to be good.

bulis

edit

at least 2 times last night i was amazed at the 'speed' in which couts moved the puck to the offensive end of the ice. I've always criticized him for being a slug out there but last night he showed me something I had no idea he was capable of. Couts +1, Moy 0.

They really need Giroux to get going and start dominating some games. He will be integral if the team is going to survive these long road trips. The Couturier line is playing well, but Giroux are Voracek need to play well in order for this team to be good.
- PhillySportsGuy

G, Hartsy, Jake needed to get going if for no other reason than to take the immense pressure off of couts and b schenn to carry the team. with the pressure off both these guys can just play hockey and it's obvious the difference its made. jmo.

at least 2 times last night i was amazed at the 'speed' in which couts moved the puck to the offensive end of the ice. I've always criticized him for being a slug out there but last night he showed me something I had no idea he was capable of. Couts +1, Moy 0.
- moylander

He is 20 (frank)ing years old. I tell people who I talk to outside of the buzz that even if he never sees his offensive potential develop (the most common complaint about him I hear), he will still be an outstanding shutdown center. People forget he's 20 and expect him to be Crosby or something. It's clear the offensive instincts are there, at least from his rookie year. But he's been solid on faceoffs and shutting down top lines. What he does against Malkin and Crosby every time he's out there should be enough for some people to get off his back.

If he is playing like this when he's 20, imagine what he'll be doing in 5 years. Malkin will go back to Russia just to get away from him.

Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings:
Sustaining Success
- bmeltzer

Good things from Sam Morin & Scott Laughton from my viewings

[quote=Husqyghost]
Nice mask

Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Sustaining Success
- bmeltzer

As bad as Rosebud looked on the Boulton goal, Erik Gustafsson totally blew his assignment, as well. He froze like a deer on a highway and ended up making a half-assed attempt to block the pass to Boulton.

Bill & Fellow Buzzers,

I know it is the scheme du jour, but is there any real credence given to the "moneyball" or sabremetric stats in hockey?

I think that it does more than project value, I feel it promotes the essence of "team" more than the individual.

What made me think about this was Read scoring the first Flyer goal in our last 2 wins. I was just curious, because I would absolutely weight the first goal scored in a tight game more than a fifth goal tacked on to a 5-1 blowout.

Or in the NBA there is a stat of baskets made in "clutch" situations where they account for the margin (within 5 pts I think) of lead and time left in game; I think it icks in during the last 5 minutes of the game.

Just curious on anyone's thoughts and/or if anyone knows if this is currently being implemented in scouting.

He is 20 (frank)ing years old. I tell people who I talk to outside of the buzz that even if he never sees his offensive potential develop (the most common complaint about him I hear), he will still be an outstanding shutdown center. People forget he's 20 and expect him to be Crosby or something. It's clear the offensive instincts are there, at least from his rookie year. But he's been solid on faceoffs and shutting down top lines. What he does against Malkin and Crosby every time he's out there should be enough for some people to get off his back.

If he is playing like this when he's 20, imagine what he'll be doing in 5 years. Malkin will go back to Russia just to get away from him.
- feelingkettle

Love that last part

On Couturier, I've stood by the guy harder than I stood by Bryz. I've been beating the #14 drum since the January before they drafted him. I was home one day with my buddy looking at Junior scoring leaders, etc, and Coots put up like 90 pts in his last 2 seasons in Juniors. I looked at my friend and we were both like....damn....I wish the Flyers could draft someone like that. And it came true after that Carter steal!!

Anyway, my point is he's got hands. He does. He didn't put up 90 points for nothing. And before people say BUT LAPPY JSKLD;AJVDLS; I'll say that I think Couturier's immediate jump to the NHL proves he's not a "fizzle out" player that is a fringe NHLer even though he's scored prolifically as a kid in Juniors.

Moreover, he's definitely shown flashes of brilliance. If he reaches his offensive potential (which I believe he will), I think he'll play the game VERY similar to the way JVR does. Look at what Coots has done lately- he just bullrushes the puck into the offensive zone, gets it deep, and if he corrals the puck behind the net....it's a thing of beauty. He just wills the puck to the slot or on net any way he can. He shrugs off the D, he protects the puck, he'll lean into guys....any way he can he gets the disc to a scoring position or on net or back to the point, even. The kid has serious strength, and he's not even filled out yet. We're seeing this much more often this year, and especially just in this past week. We've seen the flashes of it in years past- that OT period last year comes to mind.

If he keeps his play on this line up, in a few years we're gonna see a special player. We're gonna see a 6'3 210-215 lbs player as defensively sound as Datsyuk, with the overall "any way ya can" mentality of Forsberg (without the hitting or offensive output obviously), and a power forward streak like JVR showed in the Bruins series.

That's a kid I want to keep on my team.

http://sports.yahoo.com/b...ender-142403940--nhl.html

Mason getting national love. About Seravelling time!

As bad as Rosebud looked on the Boulton goal, Erik Gustafsson totally blew his assignment, as well. He froze like a deer on a highway and ended up making a half-assed attempt to block the pass to Boulton.
- Jsaquella

L Schenn and Gusty look like a pair of, well...
young defenseman, out there.

They are going to make plenty of mistakes.

Berube could go with Hal Gill and Mezzy.
But nearly everyone on here was critical of that, and most reasonable posters seem willing to let Gusty and Schenn go through their growing pains.

And despite his years in the league, L Schenn is still a young defenseman.

Jsaq this is not directed at you, you are one of the most reasonable and enjoyable to read posters in here, I'm just continuing the discussion.

Love that last part

On Couturier, I've stood by the guy harder than I stood by Bryz. I've been beating the #14 drum since the January before they drafted him. I was home one day with my buddy looking at Junior scoring leaders, etc, and Coots put up like 90 pts in his last 2 seasons in Juniors. I looked at my friend and we were both like....damn....I wish the Flyers could draft someone like that. And it came true after that Carter steal!!

Anyway, my point is he's got hands. He does. He didn't put up 90 points for nothing. And before people say BUT LAPPY JSKLD;AJVDLS; I'll say that I think Couturier's immediate jump to the NHL proves he's not a "fizzle out" player that is a fringe NHLer even though he's scored prolifically as a kid in Juniors.

Moreover, he's definitely shown flashes of brilliance. If he reaches his offensive potential (which I believe he will), I think he'll play the game VERY similar to the way JVR does. Look at what Coots has done lately- he just bullrushes the puck into the offensive zone, gets it deep, and if he corrals the puck behind the net....it's a thing of beauty. He just wills the puck to the slot or on net any way he can. He shrugs off the D, he protects the puck, he'll lean into guys....any way he can he gets the disc to a scoring position or on net or back to the point, even. The kid has serious strength, and he's not even filled out yet. We're seeing this much more often this year, and especially just in this past week. We've seen the flashes of it in years past- that OT period last year comes to mind.

If he keeps this up on this line we're gonna see a special player. We're gonna see a 6'3 210-215 lbs player as defensively sound as Datsyuk, with the overall "any way ya can" mentality of Forsberg (without the hitting or offensive output obviously), and a power forward streak like JVR showed in the Bruins series.

That's a kid I want to keep on my team.
- Giroux_Is_God

Absolutely. One of my favorite sayings is you cannot teach size. And one it begins to come together and he plays with more confidence (and better players) he could be dominant.

I would keep him through the next 2 years, and the duration of his contract, regardless of his performance.

Bill & Fellow Buzzers,

I know it is the scheme du jour, but is there any real credence given to the "moneyball" or sabremetric stats in hockey?

I think that it does more than project value, I feel it promotes the essence of "team" more than the individual.

What made me think about this was Read scoring the first Flyer goal in our last 2 wins. I was just curious, because I would absolutely weight the first goal scored in a tight game more than a fifth goal tacked on to a 5-1 blowout.

Or in the NBA there is a stat of baskets made in "clutch" situations where they account for the margin (within 5 pts I think) of lead and time left in game; I think it icks in during the last 5 minutes of the game.

Just curious on anyone's thoughts and/or if anyone knows if this is currently being implemented in scouting.
- DrMidnite

There are some teams that use analytics to extensive degrees. The Sharks are a well known proponent of using advanced stats to get a better read on players and how they will fit.

There's a bevy of numbers out there. You have the well known Corsi & Fenwick numbers, but there's also stats for zone starts, quality of competition faced and and every imaginable occurence on the ice.

When it comes to stats in hockey, there is no silver bullet that will tell you everything.

I personally use stats to get a better understanding of what I saw. I don't immediately figure out a guy's Corsi after the game, but I will check it out at some point. Also, if I want to look at a player to discuss him as possible trade bait, I will try to find video and take a look at his numbers.

The biggest benefit of advanced stats in hockey is, that you literally can't watch every game a guy plays. It's not like baseball, where you can see every single plate appearance and get a definite answer. But numbers only show you so much...I always try to see at least highlights of a guy.