This is just some random clips taken from one single game showing good solid skating and puck moving plays made by guys who supposedly aren't capable of doing so.

Schenn nails Dupuis into his own bench boards, then gets back in time to cover his man in the slot where he blocks a Pens shot from getting through and swiftly skates up and delivers a crisp outlet pass to Couturier to start the break:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw41IoIIzRw

Schenn gathers the puck along the D zone boards, passes onto the tape of Timonen who passes back to Schenn who skates the puck up in transition, making a nice lead pass onto the tape of Couturier who enters the O zone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5F6-eUjd2o

Timonen from behind the net, up to Schenn who skates a bit before making a slick lead pass up the ice to Voracek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bayVnf675c

Coby fights off the forechecking Crosby to gain control in the defensive zone, makes a cross ice pass to Grossman who makes a nice transition pass up to Fedotenko, sending him off into the offensive zone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSEkqawEueA

Here Coby fights for a puck aong the defensive boards, Grossman comes in, gets the puck and curls around the slot before hitting G with a sweet pass that sends him off on the rush. They gain the zone and get to work, Grossman makes a nice pinch to keep it in along the far boards (25 sec of the vid). The guys set up and apply more pressure, with the Coburn moving the puck from the umbrella...the Pens get it out but Coburn skates back and makes a cross ice pass to Timonen who deftly enters back into the offensive zone, Lots of solid puck moving:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXTsXZE_CYA

Grossman takes the puck off the faceoff win and moves it behind the net which he uses to pick the forechecker, he then skates it out with the puck confidently before making a solid lead pass to Giroux to key the breakout. Later in the sequence he helps out deep to keep the cycle going:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXyA_DWh5KM

I know it's from last year, but these guys pretty much make these kinds of plays every game, which shows they are certainly capable of them...but again, people seem to focus on the mistakes.
- exlund

Are you for real right now?

We all watch the Flyers enough to know each players strengths and weaknesses. Putting together a mix tape of their better plays isn't going to change anyones mind.

I think their D needs an infusion of high end skill as much as speed
Grossmann has almost no offense in his game and both Schenn and Coburn rarely show any offensive creativity. Timonen has clearly lost a step and Mez was always more of a shooter rather than a playmaker. I had hoped for more from Streit, his inconsistency has been disappointing.

While a guy like Matt Carle could skate well, his decision making with the puck was often poor as was his D zone coverage. On the other hand, Pronger was only an average skater, but they badly miss his high end skill and creativity.
- BiggE

I agree that the team will need a skilled, point producing D man to join the defensive core (especially with Timo and Mez leaving)...between guys like Ghost-is-not-be-here-yet and Alt you might get some of that at some point, and there is the likelihood of a trade or signing in the interim...I'm on board with that...but I don't think it's something you reach for in the short term. In time I think the right moves will present themselves...hopefully Homer has the sense to know when and who and how much etc.

Are you for real right now?

We all watch the Flyers enough to know each players strengths and weaknesses. Putting together a mix tape of their better plays isn't going to change anyones mind.
- PhillySportsGuy

It's from one game...not a mix. The way you talk it's like you don't believe or see these guys as capable of making these types of plays. So, there is evidence. That's how I roll...you new here?

Carle would be our best all around defenseman right now.
- PhillySportsGuy

Not that I agree, but we would surely suck, if that were the case.

The pp is horribly uncreative and slow to watch. I know they had a string of goals in games recently- but I think its predictable.

The first pp unit seems to have 2 set plays: (1) Giroux to Hartnell for the quick one-timer from the side of the slot. (2) Giroux to Simmer near the post who sends a no-look redirect pass to Voracek.

Else, its a lot of looking, holding on, and ultimately either: sending the pass off to Giroux and expect him to be like Forsberg or launching a shot from the point which is usually blocked. The Giroux cross-ice passes are usually forced and intercepted.

I miss Briere who would drift off near behind the net and who was so shifty there. Briere was a threat to do a wraparound as well as pass. Now, Simmer or Hartnell are no real threats for either. If they get the puck along the boards behind the net, they will have to get the puck on their forehand to pass and this means turning their body around. I also miss Voracek going up and down the right side with the puck like last year.

I would not mind seeing Hartnell moved to the 2nd pp unit and have Lecavalier take Voracek's spot and see Voracek occasionally drift behind the net. If he gets the pass from Giroux he is a much better threat to find an open guy once a d-man goes over to him. Lecavalier has the best one-timer and if he gets a pass the whole defence will slide over to him knowing that. This would also open up more of the ice for the more creative guys on the first pp unit.

This is just some random clips taken from one single game showing good solid skating and puck moving plays made by guys who supposedly aren't capable of doing so.
- exlund

You're right... most of those guys would easily beat Hal Gill in a foot race.

Seriously, though... the problem isn't foot-speed... it's brain speed and moving up the ice as a unit and executing cleanly. There are d-groups that are even less talented (and maybe just as "immobile") as the Flyers' and they don't seem to struggle as badly on breakouts and in transition because they work better as a unit. They could have a d-corps of six Duncan Keith clones and it would still be a disaster if they were constantly flinging long, cross-ice passes into each other's skates.

Short quick passes > Long hope passes

It's from one game...not a mix. The way you talk it's like you don't believe or see these guys as capable of making these types of plays. So, there is evidence. That's how I roll...you new here?
- exlund

If you take snippets from any game, you can make any player look good or bad. The current defense has some good defensive defenseman, but they lack creativity and overall talent. Most of them play sound, positional hockey, you need some natural talent.

I don't understand why you keep saying they aren't a slow defense. Their top 6 right now is all average or below average skaters. Coburn is the only decent skater, but he rarely uses his skating for offense. He never jumps into plays or skates the puck through the neutral zone.

Also, stop saying Grossmann and Schenn move well for their size. They don't move well for their size and even if they did, it doesn't matter because they don't move well in terms of an average defenseman.

The pp is horribly uncreative and slow to watch. I know they had a string of goals in games recently- but I think its predictable.

The first pp unit seems to have 2 set plays: (1) Giroux to Hartnell for the quick one-timer from the side of the slot. (2) Giroux to Simmer near the post who sends a no-look redirect pass to Voracek.

Else, its a lot of looking, holding on, and ultimately either: sending the pass off to Giroux and expect him to be like Forsberg or launching a shot from the point which is usually blocked. The Giroux cross-ice passes are usually forced and intercepted.

I miss Briere who would drift off near behind the net and who was so shifty there. Briere was a threat to do a wraparound as well as pass. Now, Simmer or Hartnell are no real threats for either. If they get the puck along the boards behind the net, they will have to get the puck on their forehand to pass and this means turning their body around. I also miss Voracek going up and down the right side with the puck like last year.

I would not mind seeing Hartnell moved to the 2nd pp unit and have Lecavalier take Voracek's spot and see Voracek occasionally drift behind the net. If he gets the pass from Giroux he is a much better threat to find an open guy once a d-man goes over to him. Lecavalier has the best one-timer and if he gets a pass the whole defence will slide over to him knowing that. This would also open up more of the ice for the more creative guys on the first pp unit.
- PT21

Or they could try an umbrella using Streit, Vinny, Voracek, Giroux, and Simmonds in the crease. We'd be a one timer threat from all over.

Not that I agree, but we would surely suck, if that were the case.
- exlund

Carle is pretty much on par with our best defenseman.

The pp is horribly uncreative and slow to watch. I know they had a string of goals in games recently- but I think its predictable.

The first pp unit seems to have 2 set plays: (1) Giroux to Hartnell for the quick one-timer from the side of the slot. (2) Giroux to Simmer near the post who sends a no-look redirect pass to Voracek.

Else, its a lot of looking, holding on, and ultimately either: sending the pass off to Giroux and expect him to be like Forsberg or launching a shot from the point which is usually blocked. The Giroux cross-ice passes are usually forced and intercepted.

I miss Briere who would drift off near behind the net and who was so shifty there. Briere was a threat to do a wraparound as well as pass. Now, Simmer or Hartnell are no real threats for either. If they get the puck along the boards behind the net, they will have to get the puck on their forehand to pass and this means turning their body around. I also miss Voracek going up and down the right side with the puck like last year.

I would not mind seeing Hartnell moved to the 2nd pp unit and have Lecavalier take Voracek's spot and see Voracek occasionally drift behind the net. If he gets the pass from Giroux he is a much better threat to find an open guy once a d-man goes over to him. Lecavalier has the best one-timer and if he gets a pass the whole defence will slide over to him knowing that. This would also open up more of the ice for the more creative guys on the first pp unit.
- PT21

I agree with most of these ideas...teams watch tape these days, you gotta keep things fresh...the guys need to move their feet more to open passing and shooting lanes, allow some of their natural instincts and talent to take over.

It's from one game...not a mix. The way you talk it's like you don't believe or see these guys as capable of making these types of plays. So, there is evidence. That's how I roll...you new here?
- exlund

I doubt anyone is saying that they are incapable of making an outlet pass. But the history of the last few years shows a pretty solid recipe for beating the Flyers, and it's remained the same despite Berube installing a more defensively sound system & demanding better puck support from the forwards-and that is forecheck the Hell out of the defense and clog the neutral zone.

Adding a Yandle or Byfuglien won't cure all the ills in one fell swoop, but it would give them a nice weapon as a change of pace on the back end.

Bob got hurt, had to be helped off the ice.

Carle is pretty much on par with our best defenseman.
- PhillySportsGuy

Have you seen him play recently? He's been pretty average...guys like Gudas and Salo and Hedman are proving to be better and taking some of his icetime, which is smart by Tampa...Carle isn't a guy you want to play top minutes on a regular basis.
I'm not trying to say Matt Carle couldn't help the Flyers at all, but his contract is a steep overpayment imo.

If I'm assembling a team to play a tournament or something, I'd probably consider Timonen, Grossmann, Coburn and Schenn before Carle...Streit would be a tough call, as he has yet to really settle in and perform the up to the level he's proven to be capable of previously, but I just don't see a special something that Carle brings that other than durability and slightly above average all-around (non-physical) play. His shot sucks and he can't qb a pp...he's questionable with the puck in his own zone...defensively, he has a good stick, but doesn't take the body at times when doing so would be the preferred play.

Have you seen him play recently? He's been pretty average...guys like Gudas and Salo and Hedman are proving to be better and taking some of his icetime, which is smart by Tampa...Carle isn't a guy you want to play top minutes on a regular basis.
I'm not trying to say Matt Carle couldn't help the Flyers at all, but his contract is a steep overpayment imo.

If I'm assembling a team to play a tournament or something, I'd probably consider Timonen, Grossmann, Coburn and Schenn before Carle...Streit would be a tough call, as he has yet to really settle in and perform the up to the level he's proven to be capable of previously, but I just don't see a special something that Carle brings that other than durability and slightly above average all-around (non-physical) play. His shot sucks and he can't qb a pp...he's questionable with the puck in his own zone...defensively, he has a good stick, but doesn't take the body at times when doing so would be the preferred play.
- exlund

How many players on the Flyers can play 23 minutes, finish as a plus player and score 35-40 points every year?

[quote=
Short quick passes > Long hope passes

This!

Its basically what I also yell at teams, make a pass not a prayer.

I never knew that Flyers players were so religious.........

How many players on the Flyers can play 23 minutes, finish as a plus player and score 35-40 points every year?
- PhillySportsGuy

Timonen and Streit can do these things. Coburn is only behind in the point department and not by much.

Timonen and Streit can do these things. Coburn is only behind in the point department and not by much.
- JAKEw1234

Streit is always a minus player and if you use saber metrics he's not matched up against tough opponents in the defensive zone very often.

Timonen can do those things, but he's older and will have a difficult time staying healthy. Carle rarely misses time.

My argument is that Carle would be among our best defenseman. I don't see anyone on the team that offers everything that Carle does. He's not a top pairing guy unless he's with Pronger, but he's certainly a quality defenseman.

Ellison with a rocket over Lehtonen's shoulder.

Bob got hurt, had to be helped off the ice.
- Jsaquella

First Lupul, JvR, & Bryz, now Bob... Richie and Carter next...

*looks for Spiderman*

Streit is always a minus player and if you use saber metrics he's not matched up against tough opponents in the defensive zone very often.

Timonen can do those things, but he's older and will have a difficult time staying healthy. Carle rarely misses time.

My argument is that Carle would be among our best defenseman. I don't see anyone on the team that offers everything that Carle does. He's not a top pairing guy unless he's with Pronger, but he's certainly a quality defenseman.
- PhillySportsGuy

And Carle is often matched up with tough opponents?

I doubt anyone is saying that they are incapable of making an outlet pass. But the history of the last few years shows a pretty solid recipe for beating the Flyers, and it's remained the same despite Berube installing a more defensively sound system & demanding better puck support from the forwards-and that is forecheck the Hell out of the defense and clog the neutral zone.

Adding a Yandle or Byfuglien won't cure all the ills in one fell swoop, but it would give them a nice weapon as a change of pace on the back end.
- Jsaquella

I think any team would have their hands full with a hellacious forecheck if a team is pretty good at it...it's not like Yandle or Buff are going to just trot right through a trap each rush...the Flyers can defend a big forecheck if they commit to team defense and do some ferocious backchecking that beats the opposition to loose pucks and wins board battles. I find that I can usually use the level of backchecking as a proxy for what type of game the team is bringing on any given night. Sometimes they are just all over the opposing team's forecheck, taking away their time and space and winning pucks and usually forcing turnovers and breaking out and scoring at the other end... and sometimes they are more passive, letting the other team dictate and getting hemmed in. They need to have a discpline about playing as a five man unit up and down the ice, and bringing the quickness and the necessary effort to every second of every shift.

I'm ok with adding Yandle or Buff if the deal makes sense and they don't pull the plug on too much top young talent...they've been missing a big time shot and offensive catalyst...I mean some of the guys we have can shoot it, but they need to be better about finding shooting lanes...that's where the D man with better puck skills comes into play. Streit was supposed to help in transition game and PP and such, but has only shown flashes of what he should be able to do...I'm still giving him time but he's got to show some improvement...

There will be new blood on the Flyers blueline coming in soon, regardless...let's see how they can complement the existing core...it's likely they'll look to add an offensive D man or two imo.

And Carle is often matched up with tough opponents?
- JAKEw1234

More so than Streit. Even if he isn't, he still finishes as a plus player. Streit finishes as a minus every year.

I think any team would have their hands full with a hellacious forecheck if a team is pretty good at it...it's not like Yandle or Buff are going to just trot right through a trap each rush...the Flyers can defend a big forecheck if they commit to team defense and do some ferocious backchecking that beats the opposition to loose pucks and wins board battles. I find that I can usually use the level of backchecking as a proxy for what type of game the team is bringing on any given night. Sometimes they are just all over the opposing team's forecheck, taking away their time and space and winning pucks and usually forcing turnovers and breaking out and scoring at the other end... and sometimes they are more passive, letting the other team dictate and getting hemmed in. They need to have a discpline about playing as a five man unit up and down the ice, and bringing the quickness and the necessary effort to every second of every shift.

I'm ok with adding Yandle or Buff if the deal makes sense and they don't pull the plug on too much top young talent...they've been missing a big time shot and offensive catalyst...I mean some of the guys we have can shoot it, but they need to be better about finding shooting lanes...that's where the D man with better puck skills comes into play. Streit was supposed to help in transition game and PP and such, but has only shown flashes of what he should be able to do...I'm still giving him time but he's got to show some improvement...

There will be new blood on the Flyers blueline coming in soon, regardless...let's see how they can complement the existing core...it's likely they'll look to add an offensive D man or two imo.
- exlund

I agree in principle, especially with the not trading away too much young talent to get a guy that can skate, pass and carry the puck well.

I also agree about better play as a five man unit, but at the same time, I still want more speed and smarts on the blue line. There too much redundancy for me and the guys counted on to really move the puck and provide mobility have been disappointing, to say the least, with Timonen showing his age, Gustafsson being unable to fins any degree of consistency and Streit still adjusting.

More so than Streit. Even if he isn't, he still finishes as a plus player. Streit finishes as a minus every year.
- PhillySportsGuy

Streit tends to be a minus player on teams where not many players are plus players. He has finished as a plus player.

I think any team would have their hands full with a hellacious forecheck if a team is pretty good at it...it's not like Yandle or Buff are going to just trot right through a trap each rush...the Flyers can defend a big forecheck if they commit to team defense and do some ferocious backchecking that beats the opposition to loose pucks and wins board battles. I find that I can usually use the level of backchecking as a proxy for what type of game the team is bringing on any given night. Sometimes they are just all over the opposing team's forecheck, taking away their time and space and winning pucks and usually forcing turnovers and breaking out and scoring at the other end... and sometimes they are more passive, letting the other team dictate and getting hemmed in. They need to have a discpline about playing as a five man unit up and down the ice, and bringing the quickness and the necessary effort to every second of every shift.

I'm ok with adding Yandle or Buff if the deal makes sense and they don't pull the plug on too much top young talent...they've been missing a big time shot and offensive catalyst...I mean some of the guys we have can shoot it, but they need to be better about finding shooting lanes...that's where the D man with better puck skills comes into play. Streit was supposed to help in transition game and PP and such, but has only shown flashes of what he should be able to do...I'm still giving him time but he's got to show some improvement...

There will be new blood on the Flyers blueline coming in soon, regardless...let's see how they can complement the existing core...it's likely they'll look to add an offensive D man or two imo.
- exlund

[img]

I think the overall disagreement between us is that I don't think this team, as presently constructed, is good enough to make noise in the playoffs. You believe with hard work and smart play, this team and defensive unit is good enough to win a round or two in the playoffs.[/img]