Lecavalier is a former MVP, and is hardly ancient at age 33.

The problem is, that with the inability of the defense to provide any help in transition, the offense simply won't be there. When they had a halfway decent transition defense, Giroux had 93 points, Hartnell scored 37 goals, Voracek, Read and Simmonds all scored near or above 20 goals.

When you can't move the puck up ice well, you don't get sustained attack time and you waste a ton of energy outside of the offensive zone. That's the big reason the "core" seems less talented.
- Jsaquella

The thing with LeCavalier, and he said so himself, is that he is not the same player he was before. He stated at the start of the year he needs to be more of a down low player, and cant keep up as much on the rush. Where again, you have the speed factor, which this team is horrific in.

Add in question mark with injuries, and this year along with next arguably being his probable best, things get iffy. Which is where the questions came from regarding his contract.

Again, we can agree to disagree, and this is to a lesser extent to do with LeCavalier, but I think the talent on this team is not there. To much secondary, not enough creativity, too much stupid, and lack of speed overall.

My biggest knock on bSchenn is he doesn't seem to really excel in a certain area. He doesn't really initiate.

Another big issue is the penalties. Its a joke for a team that isn't even that physical on most nights. The fourth line being another. Every player matters in the NHL. Players who have a rats ass chance in scoring shouldn't play, even if they don't hurt the team.

Too many Nodl's Pyorala's, and Raffl's in recent years. You need guys that actually excel in certain areas, not just "meh" players. That's one thing, but to not even be able to ice a decent fourth line that wont hurt you, when you have the money Holmgren has. Is ridiculous.
- flyer_nutter

eh the pens havent had a great 4th line either. its hard to fill out a solid 4th line when you have a lot of higher end contracts like the pens and flyers do.

one thing i will say you are dead on about is the penalties. granted, that 4th line may not be lighting the lamp a lot, but they have to know better than to continuously put you behind the 8 ball short handed.

The defense is a black hole. They're slow, stupid and not especially good at moving the puck, especially when an opposing team gets a good forecheck going.

You then have to rely on the forwards to do more, and that kills the attack time and wastes a lot of energy.

If I could trade Simmonds for Kulikov, right now, it'd be done in a heartbeat.
- Jsaquella

i know the rivalry would prevent it, (as would his impending ufa status) but i really think niskanen would help you guys out a ton. in an alternate universe where the two teams werent pens v flyers but team x and team y, i really think a sign and trade involving nisky and simmonds would greatly help both sides

hartnell, for all his heart and soul, is much more of a problem for you guys than a solution.
- stayinthefnnet

That fire in #19 is gone and has been for a while. It comes up here and there, where you see flashes of what he was, but he is not the same player.

I more than anything think he forgot what made him special. Even the goals he does score now, they seem to be one timers. They go in, but that's not where he made his bread and butter in this league. Needs to get back to that, I have my doubts he will.

The thing with LeCavalier, and he said so himself, is that he is not the same player he was before. He stated at the start of the year he needs to be more of a down low player, and cant keep up as much on the rush. Where again, you have the speed factor, which this team is horrific in.

Add in question mark with injuries, and this year along with next arguably being his probable best, things get iffy. Which is where the questions came from regarding his contract.

Again, we can agree to disagree, and this is to a lesser extent to do with LeCavalier, but I think the talent on this team is not there. To much secondary, not enough creativity, too much stupid, and lack of speed overall.
- flyer_nutter

I disagree. The talent is there, at least up front. The hockey sense? Another story.

As far as Lecavalier goes, he still has great hand and can provide offense. Eventually, you can move him full time to a wing and use him like they did Jagr.

But what does Lecavalier looking like their best player in games this year have to do with his contract or next season?

yeah voracek scored and then handed them a shorthanded goal so he was there. another guy who's skill has basically evaporated before our eyes, while michael handzus and versteeg are playing pretty well. i swear i'll never get sick of that
- hogweed

You forgot Sharp.

That fire in #19 is gone and has been for a while. It comes up here and there, where you see flashes of what he was, but he is not the same player.

I more than anything think he forgot what made him special. Even the goals he does score now, they seem to be one timers. They go in, but that's not where he made his bread and butter in this league. Needs to get back to that, I have my doubts he will.
- flyer_nutter

he never struck me as a guy who lacked spirit or effort. i dont know if it is age, or health, or what. but he is a shell out there. like you said, he doesnt do anything that actually made him effective. he blows defensively. doesnt crash the net, doesnt screen. no dirty goals, he lags behind every play. rather than creating space for g and v, he is a ball and chain to them.

and the contract is honestly, along with streits, the only one on this team that is really an albatross.

i know the rivalry would prevent it, (as would his impending ufa status) but i really think niskanen would help you guys out a ton. in an alternate universe where the two teams werent pens v flyers but team x and team y, i really think a sign and trade involving nisky and simmonds would greatly help both sides
- stayinthefnnet

It's interesting, but again, Niskanen is a UFA, and Simmonds is one of the key pieces I'd be looking to move. I'd need more of a guarantee.

i know the rivalry would prevent it, (as would his impending ufa status) but i really think niskanen would help you guys out a ton. in an alternate universe where the two teams werent pens v flyers but team x and team y, i really think a sign and trade involving nisky and simmonds would greatly help both sides
- stayinthefnnet

Ugh. Even though he isn't playing all that well this season, Simmonds on the Pens would be a nightmare.

I disagree. The talent is there, at least up front. The hockey sense? Another story.

As far as Lecavalier goes, he still has great hand and can provide offense. Eventually, you can move him full time to a wing and use him like they did Jagr.

But what does Lecavalier looking like their best player in games this year have to do with his contract or next season?
- Jsaquella

if vinny can stay healthy, he will be productive. no he may not be a speed demon, but his hands, shot, and acumen are still there. he showed good chemistry with giroux on the powerplay. if he cant anchor a line himself, at the very least he will be a good top 6 winger.

he never struck me as a guy who lacked spirit or effort. i dont know if it is age, or health, or what. but he is a shell out there. like you said, he doesnt do anything that actually made him effective. he blows defensively. doesnt crash the net, doesnt screen. no dirty goals, he lags behind every play. rather than creating space for g and v, he is a ball and chain to them.

and the contract is honestly, along with streits, the only one on this team that is really an albatross.
- stayinthefnnet

He lost the fire when he signed the new contract. Simple as that. Before he was a happy idiot, who went out and did the dirty work. He was a streaky producer, but you could pretty much count on 20-25 goals a year and hard work.

Now...he thinks he's a star.

It's interesting, but again, Niskanen is a UFA, and Simmonds is one of the key pieces I'd be looking to move. I'd need more of a guarantee.
- Jsaquella

oh yeah i know it wouldnt happen, especially given the UFA contract. it honestly wouldnt surprise me if you guys looked at him in the offseason

I disagree. The talent is there, at least up front. The hockey sense? Another story.

As far as Lecavalier goes, he still has great hand and can provide offense. Eventually, you can move him full time to a wing and use him like they did Jagr.

But what does Lecavalier looking like their best player in games this year have to do with his contract or next season?
- Jsaquella

I remember me and you disagreed on this when Lava was around haha. No worries.

I don't think its there up front. I think the following are keepers, but after that I look at changes:
-Giroux
-Voracek
-Read
-Simmonds
-Coots

As for LeCavalier, my point was that the questions with him being a solid top 6 player will increase as does his age. The sustainability of his play, was the biggest question regarding his contract. As for my first point, of him coming in as an external source and on most nights being the best offensive player, I point to the notion that with the rest of the apparent talent up front, I would have expected them to bring more themselves, which they have not.

In short, I think its overrated personally.

Ugh. Even though he isn't playing all that well this season, Simmonds on the Pens would be a nightmare.
- wolfhounds

that the plan haha. put him with malkin and neal. would probably be the worst defensive line in all of hockey. but that would be okay, because i wouldnt imagine the puck not being on their sticks much anyway. just have him bulldoze the net setting screens and getting dirty goals. i think he could realistically hit high 20s with them.

he never struck me as a guy who lacked spirit or effort. i dont know if it is age, or health, or what. but he is a shell out there. like you said, he doesnt do anything that actually made him effective. he blows defensively. doesnt crash the net, doesnt screen. no dirty goals, he lags behind every play. rather than creating space for g and v, he is a ball and chain to them.

and the contract is honestly, along with streits, the only one on this team that is really an albatross.
- stayinthefnnet

Yet he, with probably Rosehill and Rinaldo get the most breaks from Berube.

While Luke Schenn, Guss and to a lesser extent Timonen at the start of the year get the doghouse. Its painfully obvious the coach has a soft spot for the "goonish" type players.

Ugh. Even though he isn't playing all that well this season, Simmonds on the Pens would be a nightmare.
- wolfhounds

at the same time though, niskanen would be a great fit for you guys. his salary should be a bargain relatively speaking. and he brings an element that the flyers desperately need. he unfortunately is kind of redundant on the pens. but he has a pretty good shot, is great in transition, at least average defensively, and can help out on the powerplay. the additions of him and phaneuf would be huge.

Yet he, with probably Rosehill and Rinaldo get the most breaks from Berube.

While Luke Schenn, Guss and to a lesser extent Timonen at the start of the year get the doghouse. Its painfully obvious the coach has a soft spot for the "goonish" type players.
- flyer_nutter

well then he can enjoy constantly being shorthanded. not a great way to get your skill guys out of a rut by having them glued to the bench down a man constantly

The thing with LeCavalier, and he said so himself, is that he is not the same player he was before. He stated at the start of the year he needs to be more of a down low player, and cant keep up as much on the rush. Where again, you have the speed factor, which this team is horrific in.

Add in question mark with injuries, and this year along with next arguably being his probable best, things get iffy. Which is where the questions came from regarding his contract.

Again, we can agree to disagree, and this is to a lesser extent to do with LeCavalier, but I think the talent on this team is not there. To much secondary, not enough creativity, too much stupid, and lack of speed overall.
- flyer_nutter

I think the team has to stop making all the wrong decisions and start making the right ones. For the product on the ice, my best example is tonight's game. For management I want you guys to look really closely at something. I'm not down on Sam Morin before he starts his career, but I do question the pick with so many good puck movers in the draft. We already have Coburn, Grossmann and Luke Schenn. What we are missing is that two way defenseman, all while Timonen is six months away from retiring. I'm scared to see what this team looks like without Kimmo Timonen and I don't think I'm overreacting at all.

at the same time though, niskanen would be a great fit for you guys. his salary should be a bargain relatively speaking. and he brings an element that the flyers desperately need. he unfortunately is kind of redundant on the pens. but he has a pretty good shot, is great in transition, at least average defensively, and can help out on the powerplay. the additions of him and phaneuf would be huge.
- stayinthefnnet

I'm holding onto Simmonds unless the deal wows me. Love his hustle. I'd trade Jake before I sent Simmonds packing. Jmo.

I remember me and you disagreed on this when Lava was around haha. No worries.

I don't think its there up front. I think the following are keepers, but after that I look at changes:
-Giroux
-Voracek
-Read
-Simmonds
-Coots

As for LeCavalier, my point was that the questions with him being a solid top 6 player will increase as does his age. The sustainability of his play, was the biggest question regarding his contract. As for my first point, of him coming in as an external source and on most nights being the best offensive player, I point to the notion that with the rest of the apparent talent up front, I would have expected them to bring more themselves, which they have not.

In short, I think its overrated personally.
- flyer_nutter

I keep B Schenn over Read every day of the week, and I like Read, but he's pretty much as good as he's going to get whereas Schenn still has room to improve.

at the same time though, niskanen would be a great fit for you guys. his salary should be a bargain relatively speaking. and he brings an element that the flyers desperately need. he unfortunately is kind of redundant on the pens. but he has a pretty good shot, is great in transition, at least average defensively, and can help out on the powerplay. the additions of him and phaneuf would be huge.
- stayinthefnnet

I don't mind niskanen. Although I think he fills in too much of that "secondary" type of player on this team. They need more star power, for lack of a better phrase.

My ideal targets for trade would probably be Edler or Yandle. As long as they can keep Giroux and Coots, I'd look to make a deal.

In UFA you have Phaneuf, Pitkanen and Girardi as attractive options.

I had hoped Guss would take a step forward this season, but he is not being given the opportunity. You need to play that young d-man to give him a real shot. Same goes for guys like Alt or Lauridsen. Who apparently will continue to be stuck behind the 8 ball in favour of veterans who wont bring this team closer to some foolish hope at a cup.

I keep B Schenn over Read every day of the week, and I like Read, but he's pretty much as good as he's going to get whereas Schenn still has room to improve.
- wolfhounds

I'd personally like to keep the certainty that is Read, and the PK ability...

Over that "potential" of bSchenn. I'd look to deal the Schenn brothers myself.

I don't mind niskanen. Although I think he fills in too much of that "secondary" type of player on this team. They need more star power, for lack of a better phrase.

My ideal targets for trade would probably be Edler or Yandle. As long as they can keep Giroux and Coots, I'd look to make a deal.

In UFA you have Phaneuf, Pitkanen and Girardi as attractive options.

I had hoped Guss would take a step forward this season, but he is not being given the opportunity. You need to play that young d-man to give him a real shot. Same goes for guys like Alt or Lauridsen. Who apparently will continue to be stuck behind the 8 ball in favour of veterans who wont bring this team closer to some foolish hope at a cup.
- flyer_nutter

to get that star power though, it is going to cost big time. if im an opposing team, coots is the first thing i ask for. girardi is a really underrated option though.

and totally agree about gus. its impossible for him to take a step forward without any playing time

I'm holding onto Simmonds unless the deal wows me. Love his hustle. I'd trade Jake before I sent Simmonds packing. Jmo.
- moylander

as much as i like simmonds, i think jake actually probably has more value.

but for my own selfish reasons of playing armchair GM, simmonds for the pens wows me. hes exactly what they need. a full season there would make his contract look like larceny

I think the team has to stop making all the wrong decisions and start making the right ones. For the product on the ice, my best example is tonight's game. For management I want you guys to look really closely at something. I'm not down on Sam Morin before he starts his career, but I do question the pick with so many good puck movers in the draft. We already have Coburn, Grossmann and Luke Schenn. What we are missing is that two way defenseman, all while Timonen is six months away from retiring. I'm scared to see what this team looks like without Kimmo Timonen and I don't think I'm overreacting at all.
- Schenn2shine

Well that was the knock on Morin from some of us here. That he already seems to fit the bill of what the team has. When they desperately needed that offensive puck moving threat instead of a shutdown guy.

They better hope he pans out to at least be a good shutdown d-man.