It's a valid argument, but I know which player I build a team around, and it isn't Carter.
- wolfhounds

Things have gotten bad when we're being nostalgic about Jeff Carter

I saw a lot more out of Carter and Richards then I do out of Schenn and Couturier. Carter had 23 goals as a rookie and slumped due to injury and being on an aweful 2006 team. Richards had 11 goals while playing on the 4th line, being an incredible PKer and Very physical and recently led the Phantoms to the calder. The next year he also was injury rittled but was on pace for 20 some goals in his 2nd season on that 2006 team. There really is no compairson there.
- youarewrong

Carter an Richards were limited by an awful team? Couturier & Schenn play on a similarly troubled team.

There's an absolute comparison. Players develop at their own paces. Part of Couturier's "slow" offensive development is due to how he was used for his first two seasons. He played most of his shifts on the fourth line, with unskilled linemates and was routinely going up against the best offensive lines the opposing team had.

Schenn has bounced from wing to center and back again, and has never had consistent linemates.

Both Carter and Richards were top six players and saw ample PP time from the start of their careers. The resulting higher offensive totals are mainly becuase of usage, rather than being more talented.

If the pens offered Maata for Timo, you'd have to take it. The real question would be, would you root for Kimmo to win a cup as a member of the Pens?
- PhillySportsGuy

In about half a heartbeat.

I'd root for Timonen, not for the Pens.

This isn't a knock on him in any shape or form, but I don't think he's one of those guys who would consider their career incomplete w/o a Cup... he's got multiple Olympic medals, multiple SM-Liiga/Mestis Championships, and Kalpa to hang his hat on.
- Tomahawk

He did get to play in a Stanley Cup too. He's played in multiple All-Star games and should be elected into the Flyers HOF at some point. He's had a great career and shouldn't feel like he needs a Cup to validate it.

Man, this board is depressing a full of anger and panic today.

Does anyone at all remember the general offseason consensus of staying the course and going through a rebuild-esque period? Now we're trying to rip the team apart and bring in the quick fixes.

Look, there's no guarantee that our young players will develop well. And if they do develop well, there's no guarantee they'll be healthy. And if they do develop well and stay healthy, there's no guarantee they'll be the players we need. But really, let's please, PLEASE stop trying to trade everyone on the team for everyone in the league. Please? Is that too much to ask?
- jmatchett383

I want to trade jmatchett for picks, prospects, future considerations or some really good, barely used equipment. Any takers?

This isn't a knock on him in any shape or form, but I don't think he's one of those guys who would consider their career incomplete w/o a Cup... he's got multiple Olympic medals, multiple SM-Liiga/Mestis Championships, and Kalpa to hang his hat on.
- Tomahawk

I just think he's a "warrior" type guy and would take the opportunity to head of to battle with a good team and have a chance to win. I don;t think he'd press for a deal, but I also don't think he returns if the Flyers are rebuilding next season.

Neither Yandle nor Edler are right-shots, either... neither are Hagg/Morin/Ghost... this team needs a RH top-4 guy so badly it's not even funny... Runblad or Stone would be much better adds from PHX... Tanev or Corrado from VAN.
- Tomahawk

If only we could give them Hartnell for Tanev. He could score 30 playing with the Sedins, and we'd have a good young defenseman.

The 2013-14 Philadelphia Flyers aren't an awful team. They aren't a particularly good one, either. They are awash in mediocrity.

This team is what it is, talent-wise.

They are not going to be able to change up their talent without trading young offensive talent away.

What really worries me is the blue line. They have some good pieces there that just don't fit. The organization would do itself a favor by figuring out if Luke Schenn is any good or not. I think LSchenn is a good hockey player, but I do think they need to find what he is good at and have him do that.

In about half a heartbeat.

I'd root for Timonen, not for the Pens.
- Jsaquella

Agreed.

And the good thing is, he wouldn't be in that sweater for very long.

Agreed.

And the good thing is, he wouldn't be in that sweater for very long.
- wolfhounds

I was far more upset seeing Tim Kerr in a Rangers jersey than I would be seeing Kimmo in a Pens jersey for a month or two

If the pens offered Maata for Timo, you'd have to take it. The real question would be, would you root for Kimmo to win a cup as a member of the Pens?
- PhillySportsGuy

The last time I remember the Flyers doing a deal with the Pens, the Pens won a Cup.

I don't need to see that again.

This team is what it is, talent-wise.

They are not going to be able to change up their talent without trading young offensive talent away.

What really worries me is the blue line. They have some good pieces there that just don't fit. The organization would do itself a favor by figuring out if Luke Schenn is any good or not. I think LSchenn is a good hockey player, but I do think they need to find what he is good at and have him do that.
- johndewar

Schenn seems to be the type of guy who plays well when the team around him plays well. He's not going to step up and elevate the play of guys around him.

If the Flyers were to trade Kimmo at the trade deadline, what would everyone expect to get for him? (This is assuming he wanted to be traded to a team with a chance of winning a cup)
- PhillySportsGuy

Well if Douglass Murray was worth 2 seconds, I would think Kimmo could land them a 1st and a 2nd.

If only we could give them Hartnell for Tanev. He could score 30 playing with the Sedins, and we'd have a good young defenseman.
- Feanor

I'd trade Hartnell for Booth just to get out from under some of those years, forget Tanev, lol.

Carter an Richards were limited by an awful team? Couturier & Schenn play on a similarly troubled team.

There's an absolute comparison. Players develop at their own paces. Part of Couturier's "slow" offensive development is due to how he was used for his first two seasons. He played most of his shifts on the fourth line, with unskilled linemates and was routinely going up against the best offensive lines the opposing team had.

Schenn has bounced from wing to center and back again, and has never had consistent linemates.

Both Carter and Richards were top six players and saw ample PP time from the start of their careers. The resulting higher offensive totals are mainly becuase of usage, rather than being more talented.
- Jsaquella

A completely subjective observation: Both Carter and Richards seem like better skaters than either of Couturier and, especially, Brayden Schenn.

Maybe Colorado will be interested in a Kimmo rental? If this is his last season I hope he would help us out by agreeing to a trade. It would only be for a few months.

This team is what it is, talent-wise.

They are not going to be able to change up their talent without trading young offensive talent away.

What really worries me is the blue line. They have some good pieces there that just don't fit. The organization would do itself a favor by figuring out if Luke Schenn is any good or not. I think LSchenn is a good hockey player, but I do think they need to find what he is good at and have him do that.
- johndewar

LSchenn had a pretty good game yesterday. I'd be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for this year and next...that gets him to the ripe old age of 25 before declaring him a bust.

Well if Douglass Murray was worth 2 seconds, I would think Kimmo could land them a 1st and a 2nd.
- BiggE

I'm thinking it would be a late first or a Mid 2nd and 3rd.

Carter an Richards were limited by an awful team? Couturier & Schenn play on a similarly troubled team.

There's an absolute comparison. Players develop at their own paces. Part of Couturier's "slow" offensive development is due to how he was used for his first two seasons. He played most of his shifts on the fourth line, with unskilled linemates and was routinely going up against the best offensive lines the opposing team had.

Schenn has bounced from wing to center and back again, and has never had consistent linemates.

Both Carter and Richards were top six players and saw ample PP time from the start of their careers. The resulting higher offensive totals are mainly becuase of usage, rather than being more talented.
- Jsaquella

What are you smoking. Richards started his career as a 4th line player just like Couts did. And isn't as much as what they produced as what they showed. Carter showed that he could be a scoring threat from day 1. Richards showed that he could play a good shutdown game and still have offensive side. He also had a hell of a mean streak and was a great hitter and leader. That is why you could see them as the core of the team.

With Couts and Schenn, you have to say "if". "If" Couturier can develop an offensive side, that we havent seen much of..... "If" Schenn can add some speed and have consistancy in scoring. You cant, and shouldnt be building your team around "IFs".

Schenn seems to be the type of guy who plays well when the team around him plays well. He's not going to step up and elevate the play of guys around him.
- PhillySportsGuy

I just feel like they need to figure out where and if he fits on this team going forward.

Maybe his ice time takes care of itself at the TDL, where I'd be stunned if the Flyers didn't make a deal with a team who needs D.

A completely subjective observation: Both Carter and Richards seem like better skaters than either of Couturier and, especially, Brayden Schenn.
- johndewar

Carter can skate circles around all three of them. Couts, Schenn and Richards aren't very good skaters. Couts and Richards make up for it with very good anticipation.

Just a quick question regarding Holmgren. Why does anyone want him to be retained and be a part of rebuilding this defense core.

Look at his last few years regarding the defense

1. He handled the Matt Carle situation poorly. ( I did not criticize him for this b/c I'm not a Carle fan to put it mildly) I have seen a lot of people who weren't happy regarding the Carle situation.

2. Striking out on Weber without any backup plan in place.

3. Trading JVR for a statue in Luke Schenn

4. Giving Timonen a 6 million dollar deal when he appeared just about toast

5. Signing Mark Streit

Not sure how these moves can be defended. Holmgren has done some nice things in his tenure, but he's left the Flyers blueline in virtual shambles.

Edit: And yes I know losing Pronger has a domino effect on the defense.

LSchenn had a pretty good game yesterday. I'd be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for this year and next...that gets him to the ripe old age of 25 before declaring him a bust.
- wolfhounds

I don't think "bust" is the word I'm looking for.

More like diminished expectations.

The last time I remember the Flyers doing a deal with the Pens, the Pens won a Cup.

I don't need to see that again.
- johndewar

Was that Hamhuis for a 2nd?

Could happen. The team plane could also crash tomorrow. Giroux could get kidnapped by Syrian terrorists.
- jmatchett383

I'm not sure he hasn't been kidnapped...