Pens haven't their top guy just about all year... they're doing great. I'm not even sure if Martin is what you would consider top-pairing quality, and even he's missed half the year.

Avs are succeeding with what can only be described as a bare-bones d-corps. Johnson's played well, but he hasn't really played up to the level of a legit top-pair level guy at any point in his career.

Anaheim is another team that succeeds despite being thin/young on the back-end... Fowler's finally putting up points again, but he's not shutting anybody down... and there's not much behind him in terms of top-level talent.

So I guess my point is that it's not as simple as not having a true top-pairing on D. They could go out, do whatever's necessary, and come back with Shea Weber... and this team could still be struggling if the rest of the d-corp can't be counted on to execute on both sides of the puck. 1-7, they need to be able to move their feet and move the puck and make smart reads. I'd rather them add two top-4 D for $4M each than blow $8M on one top-tier guy.
- Tomahawk

Pens are a rare exception as they are blessed with 2 legit franchise centers. And at the end of the day Ibwould rate their D corps ahead of ours.

His injury history scares me a bit more in regards to a possible decline.

I am in this line of thinking though, and I have gone back in forth on it for a while. Keep the youth, keep the picks. If a chance for a young, up-and-coming d-man comes in you try for a deal like that.

Or if you can lead a package with Hartnell for example. Otherwise, keep the youth, bite the bullet of not being able to develop your own back end for years, and build it right. The old way hasn't worked out too well. Nutter's crazy thoughts.
- flyer_nutter

I agree with you. Trading for a guy like Yandle or Byfuglien isn't the answer. They will cost a lot. If both end up being overrated, it could set this franchise back even further.

I agree with you. Trading for a guy like Yandle or Byfuglien isn't the answer. They will cost a lot. If both end up being overrated, it could set this franchise back even further.
- PhillySportsGuy

I love Yandle, he would really help. Even with Buff, and his inconsistent effort he would help greatly.

I just don't like the approach to be honest, even though I have advocated for it in the past.

Lets try something new. Build this organically. Keep the youth, keep the picks. Smart FA signings, not aging anchors like LeCavalier or Streit. If a good deal comes along with a younger and up-coming d-man comes up, you make that deal, but to me, enough of the trend that has gone on for years.

I think Couts has enough to be a top 6 player more so than Schenn. But that will differ on peoples opinion.
- ob18

he will win selkes.

time will tell.

Which, just to clarify, is what my posts the last couple of days have been regarding "are we good enough to win?".

It may not be the popular approach, but I am in proposition of a change. Of more organic growth, being able to better build your own defense, instead of throwing out pieces for players that do not end up measuring up.

It will be slower, and more painful, but that is the organization's fault for relying and hoping too much on their pocket books.

Couturier was a top 6 center for about half the season thus far. When he played with Read and Downie, they were a very strong combination. Offensively and defensively. He may be listed as the third line center, but he is one of the 3 most important forwards on the team.
- PhillySportsGuy

agreed one hundo. we've had at least 4-5 games that we should not have won but for him and that line imo.

Pens are a rare exception as they are blessed with 2 legit franchise centers. And at the end of the day Ibwould rate their D corps ahead of ours.
- BiggE

Still, it's not like Sid and Geno are taking the puck behind their own net and rushing it up the ice solo... they need guys back there to get the puck back and hit the forwards up the ice. They have Niskanen, Martin, Maatta and Orpik to do that. Bortuzzo and Despres aren't slouches either. Engelland is the only guy they have that is questionable in that respect.

Meanwhile, Flyers are laden with guys like Gill, Grossmann and Schenn that are not very useful on the breakout, and guys like Streit, Mez and Coburn that are just as likely to make a critical mistake as a good play. And Kimmo's in the twilight of his effectiveness. Magically tack Letang to the top of the Flyers' mix and I think they're still in trouble.

So I guess my point is that it's not as simple as not having a true top-pairing on D. They could go out, do whatever's necessary, and come back with Shea Weber... and this team could still be struggling if the rest of the team can't be counted on to execute on both sides of the puck. They need to be able to move their feet and move the puck and make smart reads....
- Tomahawk

FTFY

OK. Wait for the young players to develop. Great.

Are we seriously going to rip them every single game they lose because of the weakness of the back end, until then?

I ask, because not everyone was trying to hear "2016" when Tampa's pumping six past Steve Mason on Saturday or when the Flyers were down 3-0 after 20 minutes last night.

I love Yandle, he would really help. Even with Buff, and his inconsistent effort he would help greatly.

I just don't like the approach to be honest, even though I have advocated for it in the past.

Lets try something new. Build this organically. Keep the youth, keep the picks. Smart FA signings, not aging anchors like LeCavalier or Streit. If a good deal comes along with a younger and up-coming d-man comes up, you make that deal, but to me, enough of the trend that has gone on for years.
- flyer_nutter

We're on the same page, basically...I've been advocating the patient approach...many Flyer fans aren't used to this but in looking at the big picture I see a good core of young players coming into their own up front, and a good measure of young, but largely unproven and/or undeveloped talent in the pipeline...there's a couple of aging vets and spots they vacate will need to be filled...

No one single player is going to make the Flyers current lineup Cup ready. They need to mature more, the window opens up more when guys like Couturier and Schenn, Simmer and Jake, along with G, are dominating and the best out of guys like Laughton, Cousins, McGinn, Raffl, Alt, Ghost, Akeson, Lauri, Morin are earning spots in the lineup...for the most part, this is likely 2-3 years away imo. If the Flyers can conjure a deal for a 24-28 year old 1st pairing D man for a reasonable price, that's a nice piece to add...but they shouldn't dump any more money into players that will be giving diminishing returns a few years from now versus those younger players who'll primed to make a run when the time is right.

Let the youth be served...be patient, calculated and selective when it comes to deals for outside players...that's what I want to see.

Couturier was a top 6 center for about half the season thus far. When he played with Read and Downie, they were a very strong combination. Offensively and defensively. He may be listed as the third line center, but he is one of the 3 most important forwards on the team.
- PhillySportsGuy

2 way forwards yes, but it seems he's too defensive minded to a fault sometimes, & disappears on the production for spells, hope maybe it's just youth

2 way forwards yes, but it seems he's too defensive minded to a fault sometimes, & disappears on the production for spells, hope maybe it's just youth
- puckhead17

It doesn't help they don't keep him in a consistent role to develop in it. Think when Laughton arrives it might change it for the better.

I love Yandle, he would really help. Even with Buff, and his inconsistent effort he would help greatly.

I just don't like the approach to be honest, even though I have advocated for it in the past.

Lets try something new. Build this organically. Keep the youth, keep the picks. Smart FA signings, not aging anchors like LeCavalier or Streit. If a good deal comes along with a younger and up-coming d-man comes up, you make that deal, but to me, enough of the trend that has gone on for years.
- flyer_nutter

With Kimmo turning 40 Streit still sucking & Mez a UFA, we probably have no choice but to do something, I personally would be happy just to get another Coburn type, size, mobility, reliable, plays 23+ minutes, & it wouldn't cost what a Yandle would cost.
not sure if that makes much sense, but we're a better team with a stronger top 4 then breaking the bank for a great top 2 or #1 guy, & retaining an extra asset or 2.

It doesn't help they don't keep him in a consistent role to develop in it. Think when Laughton arrives it might change it for the better.
- ob18

He seems to lack offensive confidence more then most at times.

I thought he was top 6 during that scoring streak he had, then he faded.

maybe if they overload the top 2 lines (when all are healthy of course), & center him in the mix, we may see him produce more.
edit, I just hate to make the decision between Cout's Schenn or Laughton as far as who has to go for defense?

OK. Wait for the young players to develop. Great.

Are we seriously going to rip them every single game they lose because of the weakness of the back end, until then?
- AllInForFlyers

I'm actually tired of the rather fickle, up and down critcism around the available fan and media outlets...fans need to see the big picture and be patient instead of slamming the team after a couple of losses and clamoring to get rid of quality guys who happen to slump. Before the last two games the Flyers made an incredible run for several weeks and turned their season around...they beat some good teams, some of them, in their own barn. How could they do such a thing if the D is supposedly so horrid? Many of the same guys people are ripping on played significant parts in helping the team win games.

If the team effort is there at both ends, this team can win lots of games...it may not be able to beat the best the league has to offer in a playoff series, but very few teams are in that position right now and only a few can be at any given time...the Flyers aren't there yet and won't be there this season, no matter what they do...so I'm being patient...I'm looking for growth and development of the young players and for careful and calculated moves from management to help augment the process as it progresses.

He seems to lack offensive confidence more then most at times.

I thought he was top 6 during that scoring streak he had, then he faded.

maybe if they overload the top 2 lines (when all are healthy of course), & center him in the mix, we may see him produce more.
edit, I just hate to make the decision between Cout's Schenn or Laughton as far as who has to go for defense?
- puckhead17

It's possible they keep them all but Schenn for me stays on the wing. It's also possible Couturier stays as a shutdown style center & Laughton displays enough offense to play 2nd line center.

His play with Oshawa helps because of who he plays with which is almost 100% with top 2014 draft prospect Michael Dal Colle. The other winger has changed but often it's been Cole Cassels. Now it's Dylan Smoskowitz who they landed last week in a trade with Mississauga.

Don't think they'd do it to start at least but when Oshawa goes to the power play Laughton plays the right point.

I'm actually tired of the rather fickle, up and down critcism around the available fan and media outlets...fans need to see the big picture and be patient instead of slamming the team after a couple of losses and clamoring to get rid of quality guys who happen to slump. Before the last two games the Flyers made an incredible run for several weeks and turned their season around...they beat some good teams, some of them, in their own barn. How could they do such a thing if the D is supposedly so horrid? Many of the same guys people are ripping on played significant parts in helping the team win games.

If the team effort is there at both ends, this team can win lots of games...it may not be able to beat the best the league has to offer in a playoff series, but very few teams are in that position right now and only a few can be at any given time...the Flyers aren't there yet and won't be there this season, no matter what they do...so I'm being patient...I'm looking for growth and development of the young players and for careful and calculated moves from management to help augment the process as it progresses.
- exlund

your 1/2 season opinion on the 2 UFA signings Streit & Vinny?

It's possible they keep them all but Schenn for me stays on the wing. It's also possible Couturier stays as a shutdown style center & Laughton displays enough offense to play 2nd line center.

His play with Oshawa helps because of who he plays with which is almost 100% with top 2014 draft prospect Michael Dal Colle. The other winger has changed but often it's been Cole Cassels. Now it's Dylan Smoskowitz who they landed last week in a trade with Mississauga.
- ob18

I will admit, you follow the Juniors enough to know way better, I just think we're too center heavy, especially for next season, Kimmo & Mez may be gone, they have to do more then just another band aide

It's possible they keep them all but Schenn for me stays on the wing. It's also possible Couturier stays as a shutdown style center & Laughton displays enough offense to play 2nd line center.

His play with Oshawa helps because of who he plays with which is almost 100% with top 2014 draft prospect Michael Dal Colle. The other winger has changed but often it's been Cole Cassels. Now it's Dylan Smoskowitz who they landed last week in a trade with Mississauga.

Don't think they'd do it to start at least but when Oshawa goes to the power play Laughton plays the right point.
- ob18

I think a lot of Couturiers success on offense depends on who he plays with. When he was with Read and Downie, they were scoring. Since the injuries, he's had revolving line mates. I bet when he's with Downie and Read again, he'll start producing more.

I think a lot of Couturiers success on offense depends on who he plays with. When he was with Read and Downie, they were scoring. Since the injuries, he's had revolving line mates. I bet when he's with Downie and Read again, he'll start producing more.
- PhillySportsGuy

But Vinny doesn't make that line go in Read's place?

I will admit, you follow the Juniors enough to know way better, I just think we're too center heavy, especially for next season, Kimmo & Mez may be gone, they have to do more then just another band aide
- puckhead17

Most teams would like to have that problem with the addition that they can move them to wing and see them still be an effective player.

It's just not often Oshawa will use Laughton at wing unless it's a power play which often still ends up with him moving to the point.

I'd as others have mentioned explore a move for what they need on the back end. But I believe the cost will be too much to pay.

They lack prospects in the system to bring up should they move roster players & that's across the board.

Laughton is about it we'll see right away, the rest are years away. So they in my opinion can only afford to pay so much a price. They'll need the picks they have to add more to the system.

But Vinny doesn't make that line go in Read's place?
- puckhead17

In a word, no

I think a lot of Couturiers success on offense depends on who he plays with. When he was with Read and Downie, they were scoring. Since the injuries, he's had revolving line mates. I bet when he's with Downie and Read again, he'll start producing more.
- PhillySportsGuy

That can be said about many players not just him, I honestly don't see them bringing back Downie unless he takes a pay cut.

Most teams would like to have that problem with the addition that they can move them to wing and see them still be an effective player.

It's just not often Oshawa will use Laughton at wing unless it's a power play which often still ends up with him moving to the point.

I'd as others have mentioned explore a move for what they need on the back end. But I believe the cost will be too much to pay.

They lack prospects in the system to bring up should they move roster players & that's across the board.

Laughton is about it we'll see right away, the rest are years away. So they in my opinion can only afford to pay so much a price. They'll need the picks they have to add more to the system.
- ob18

Do you think Leier has a chance to play on the 4th line? Or is he AHL bound?

Do you think Leier has a chance to play on the 4th line? Or is he AHL bound?
- PhillySportsGuy

I think Leier can be an effective 3rd line player if they have a spot for him when he's ready. He might even be able to play 2nd line but probably will be a 3rd line player.