Wow, 2 lousy games and Ghost injured, what a crappy weekend.

I would have no problem with scratching Grossmann tomorrow against the Sabres. First off, why shouldn't he be held accountable for poor play like Downie or Mez and secondly, it would be nice to get Gus back in the lineup and see how he does.
- BiggE

Been wondering that for weeks.

Meanwhile, the Flyers got trolled by Carcillo.

I think it's also worth noting that Meszaros' contract isn't a Paul Holmgren product.
- BulliesPhan87

hi skip long time no see.

I don't think he's their best defensive defenseman. I'd love to not feel the way I do, because he busts his ass out there and plays hurt and does all that great poop you respect players for. He's all heart.

I just watch him play and I see mistakes and other teams controlling the play when he is out there.
- Jsaquella

As the proud owner of a Grossmann jersey, I have to concur. I love the guy, want him to succeed, but the sitting of Gus & Meszy for poor play while allowing Nik to play despite making errrors, too, smacks of bias.

I'd love Grossmann to stay a Flyer but his cap hit and replaceability by the likes of Hal Gill at a cheaper price would not make me miss him. And that sucks, because my heart likes him more than my head.

As a defensive dman, who has little, if any, offense to his game, whatever mistakes he makes are going to jump out at you. For the most part, he is fairly steady. However as a shutdown guy, which he is on this club, his mistakes are usually going to lead to prime scoring chances against. Being saddled with Streit as a partner certainly doesn't help in the least as he is a liability in his own zone.

With all that being said, he really did play pretty poorly this weekend. You almost have to wonder if he is fighting a nagging injury or 2 as much like Timonen, it takes a helluva lot to get him to sit out. I really think it wouldn't hurt to give him a few days off to heal up and get Gus back in the lineup Tuesday. If they want to keep the current pairs intact, they can also sit Streit (who also played badly this weekend) and pair Gus with Gill. Having Gill in the lineup would at least replace what you'd lose on the PK with Grossmann out.
- BiggE

He's not a shut down defenseman. He doesn't play against top competition, Coburn does.

I don't wonder if he's hurt, because he's making simple mental mistakes, that really-and especially lately-have nothing to do with his partner. Streit is a liability in his own end, Grossmann has been, too-at least at times. I also wouldn't use solid to describe him.

Grossmann has been on ice for more goals against than any Flyer skater. He's been having a rough year, by any standard

hi skip long time no see.
- -davies-

Greetings, dave!

As the proud owner of a Grossmann jersey, I have to concur. I love the guy, want him to succeed, but the sitting of Gus & Meszy for poor play while allowing Nik to play despite making errrors, too, smacks of bias.

I'd love Grossmann to stay a Flyer but his cap hit and replaceability by the likes of Hal Gill at a cheaper price would not make me miss him. And that sucks, because my heart likes him more than my head.
- Flyskippy

I think Grossmann is significantly better than Gill and has built up enough credibility to avoid being sat after a poor weekend. I would sit Streit before I sit Grossmann. It's not like Mez and Streit displayed a great shutdown ability.

I think Grossmann is significantly better than Gill and has built up enough credibility to avoid being sat after a poor weekend. I would sit Streit before I sit Grossmann. It's not like Mez and Streit displayed a great shutdown ability.
- PhillySportsGuy

Meh. Just asking for same treatment of players -- especially those shielded by not facing the top lines like 44/5 do.

I think Grossmann is significantly better than Gill and has built up enough credibility to avoid being sat after a poor weekend. I would sit Streit before I sit Grossmann. It's not like Mez and Streit displayed a great shutdown ability.
- PhillySportsGuy

Grossmann hasn't shown great shutdown ability, either. It's not just a poor weekend, it's been a trend all season.

I get it, people like Grossmann. He's easy to like. He plays through pain, he's tough and he sacrifices his body willingly. He's gritty as Hell and he's got more heart than anyone on the team.

But the bottom line is he just hasn't been very effective. When he is on the ice, the Flyers lose the possession battle and have been getting outscored by a significant margin.

Grossmann hasn't shown great shutdown ability, either. It's not just a poor weekend, it's been a trend all season.

I get it, people like Grossmann. He's easy to like. He plays through pain, he's tough and he sacrifices his body willingly. He's gritty as Hell and he's got more heart than anyone on the team.

But the bottom line is he just hasn't been very effective. When he is on the ice, the Flyers lose the possession battle and have been getting outscored by a significant margin.
- Jsaquella

I guarantee this team will get worse if they sit Grossmann. He is definitely one of their top 4 defenseman. I'm not saying he's a top 4 defenseman in the NHL, but he is on the Flyers.

Meh. Just asking for same treatment of players -- especially those shielded by not facing the top lines like 44/5 do.
- Flyskippy

Grossman faces tougher competition than Steit and Mez. He also takes more defensive zone face-offs than both of those guys. He kill penalties as well. Something Mez and Streit don't do.

If you want to make the 'Why aren't guys treated equally point' then use it on Rinaldo. He was never benched despite stupid penalties and poor overall play.

I guarantee this team will get worse if they sit Grossmann. He is definitely one of their top 4 defenseman. I'm not saying he's a top 4 defenseman in the NHL, but he is on the Flyers.
- PhillySportsGuy

Their out of zone passing will improve. I don't see that as getting worse. Sure they won't have the "HIM BIG HIT MUCH AT BOARDS" presence, but who cares if Gus or Meszy can get the puck out with a good first pass? And as for blocked shots -- all they do is show they don't have possession.

Grossman faces tougher competition than Steit and Mez. He also takes more defensive zone face-offs than both of those guys. He kill penalties as well. Something Mez and Streit don't do.

If you want to make the 'Why aren't guys treated equally point' then use it on Rinaldo. He was never benched despite stupid penalties and poor overall play.
- PhillySportsGuy

Well, seeing as Rinaldo is hurt and not relevant to the D conversation, I left him out.

Their out of zone passing will improve. I don't see that as getting worse. Sure they won't have the "HIM BIG HIT MUCH AT BOARDS" presence, but who cares if Gus or Meszy can get the puck out with a good first pass? And as for blocked shots -- all they do is show they don't have possession.
- Flyskippy

So you think Gus and Mez are going to win board battles behind the net? You think throwing good offensive players on the ice will just make the defense more efficient in exiting the zone?

I guarantee this team will get worse if they sit Grossmann. He is definitely one of their top 4 defenseman. I'm not saying he's a top 4 defenseman in the NHL, but he is on the Flyers.
- PhillySportsGuy

I disagree. I think that Gill can give them a lot of what Grossmann can, and probably avoid the dumb puck mistakes.

There's a fallacy out there that Grossmann is a great defensive defenseman. He's not. He doesn't face top competition, but has the worst Corsi & Fenwick numbers on the Flyers. He's been on ice for more goals against than anyone, including Timonen & Coburn, the guys who play more minutes-and more importantly who play more tough minutes against higher levels of competition.

He's a solid third pair mauler.

Well, seeing as Rinaldo is hurt and not relevant to the D conversation, I left him out.
- Flyskippy

Grossmann isn't the type of player you bench to give a wake up call. You bench him because you have 6 better defenseman. That simply is not the case with this team. Give Grossmann a competent partner in his own end and he won't disappoint. Give him Streit or Mez and suddenly things don't look too good.

So you think Gus and Mez are going to win board battles behind the net? You think throwing good offensive players on the ice will just make the defense more efficient in exiting the zone?
- PhillySportsGuy

Yes, you obviously know all my thoughts. Seeing as this argument will not result in anything but angst.

I'm out.

I disagree. I think that Gill can give them a lot of what Grossmann can, and probably avoid the dumb puck mistakes.

There's a fallacy out there that Grossmann is a great defensive defenseman. He's not. He doesn't face top competition, but has the worst Corsi & Fenwick numbers on the Flyers. He's been on ice for more goals against than anyone, including Timonen & Coburn, the guys who play more minutes-and more importantly who play more tough minutes against higher levels of competition.

He's a solid third pair mauler.
- Jsaquella

His QoC is third among Flyers defenseman. I would venture a guess that he, very rarely, gets offensive zone face-offs. He may have been on the ice for more goals against than anyone else, but that's because he faces those situations more than anyone besides Timonen and Coburn. I would, also, venture a guess that Grossmann would look a lot better if he were paired with Coburn or Timonen. Those guys get the advantage of being paired with competent players in their own end.

Yes, you obviously know all my thoughts. Seeing as this argument will not result in anything but angst.

I'm out.


- Flyskippy

You just said the Flyers breakouts would be better without Grossmann. You need to win board battles in order to get the puck then breakout. Mez and Gus are better passers but they aren't going to win many board battles.

what was the injury that grossmann had where he was supposedly wearing a protective sleeve of some sort? that wouldn't help explain the horrible positioning but might explain some of the lost board battles. he looked like dookie this weekend.
- -davies-

Forearm injury in the NJ game. I think he's OK now.

He simply had a nightmarish couple of games. It happens. He was very good in the NJ and Montreal games right before it.

Grossman faces tougher competition than Steit and Mez. He also takes more defensive zone face-offs than both of those guys. He kill penalties as well. Something Mez and Streit don't do.

If you want to make the 'Why aren't guys treated equally point' then use it on Rinaldo. He was never benched despite stupid penalties and poor overall play.
- PhillySportsGuy

i agree with the bolded so much it hurts

Grossmann is a top four defenseman on most NHL teams and absolutely no lower than a #5 even on a Stanley Cup caliber team. He had a horrific weekend and every mistake ended up in the net. No more and no less.

Forearm injury in the NJ game. I think he's OK now.

He simply had a nightmarish couple of games. It happens. He was very good in the NJ and Montreal games right before it.
- bmeltzer

No! Berube needs to bench him and send him a message. If players go through a rough two game stretch, they will sit and be ostracized in the streets. Tar and feathered for the masses to fully understand the embarrassment this player has brought to the franchise.

His QoC is third among Flyers defenseman. I would venture a guess that he, very rarely, gets offensive zone face-offs. He may have been on the ice for more goals against than anyone else, but that's because he faces those situations more than anyone besides Timonen and Coburn. I would, also, venture a guess that Grossmann would look a lot better if he were paired with Coburn or Timonen. Those guys get the advantage of being paired with competent players in their own end.
- PhillySportsGuy

He probably would look better playing with better defensemen, the trouble is, he gets badly outperformed playing against a lower QoC than either Coburn or Timonen do. So perhaps his level of play is what keeps him from being a true shutdown guy, because he's struggling against lesser competition.

He does see a higher percentage of his shifts in D-zone starts, partly because he's pretty useless offensively, and that means that Timonen & Coburn get a higher percentage of their zone starts in the other end.

His most notable stat, after his ridiculously high giveaway totals are shot blocks & hits. Two things that occur when you don't have the puck.

He probably would look better playing with better defensemen, the trouble is, he gets badly outperformed playing against a lower QoC than either Coburn or Timonen do. So perhaps his level of play is what keeps him from being a true shutdown guy, because he's struggling against lesser competition.

He does see a higher percentage of his shifts in D-zone starts, partly because he's pretty useless offensively, and that means that Timonen & Coburn get a higher percentage of their zone starts in the other end.

His most notable stat, after his ridiculously high giveaway totals are shot blocks & hits. Two things that occur when you don't have the puck.
- Jsaquella

Grossmann's numbers may not be great, but he is, without question, one of the top 4 defenseman on the Flyers. As bad as Grossmann may look, Streit, Mez, Gus and Gill are worse. If you want Grossmann benched, find better defenseman.