Do you think he came back too early?
- FlyersGrace

i do

Can someone help me out here. Lets say we keep 3 defensemen on this team: Coburn, Grossman, and Schenn.

If you could pick any defensemen in the NHL, who would you pair with them.
Lets say the pairs would look like:

?? Coburn
?? Grossman
?? Schenn

Then more realistically who would you pair with these players?

I'd rather see him than Grossmann.
- Jsaquella

I'm with Bill on this one. I don't expect Grossmann to be a #1 or 2 guy. But he is a #3 or #4 in the NHL. This weekend was bad. And I'm sure he knows it. And I'd be ok with a game or two benched. Partially due to the fact that I think he could use the rest. But if he's not I won't cry either. He worries me a lot less than Streit defensively. And people have brought up some good points as to why the numbers you've brought up would be low.

I think we all agree that we'd be happier if our depth on D was such that Grossmann wouldn't have to play on the 2nd pairing and would be a good 3rd pair guy.

The narrative is that Streit has been a mess in his own zone, but I'm totally confused as to how this works.

Streit has played at even strength with Grossmann for much of the season, including when the Flyers have played well and some games when the Flyers have played poorly.

How is it that Streit is a mess in his own end and Grossmann...isn't? Just because Grossmann can't score, so he has to be a defensive defenseman?

That narrative is false -- Grossmann is a solid defenseman who is likely a #5 on a Cup-caliber team, maybe a #6. And I'm fine with that.

But he's not so much better a defenseman than Streit is, for what they bring to the team, that Grossmann should get a pass for every single time the puck winds up in the net and Streit never, and I mean NEVER, gets cut any slack for when he's within 20 yards of the Wells Fargo Center when a goal gets scored.

Coburn gets the same treatment -- if a goal gets scored when he's on the ice, it's because he didn't do something. But if Timonen gets beat, well, the "Savvy Veteran" gets the benefit of the doubt.

The whipping boy ability of this fanbase sometimes is...you can't keep track of it sometimes. Mark Streit hasn't done ANYTHING to always get lumped in with everybody else's defensive struggles!
- AllInForFlyers

Grossmann and Timonen get the benefit of the doubt because they are usually pretty steady. Streit gets criticized because his poor defensive play happens a lot. Coburn gets the benefit of the doubt when he's playing well. The Nash goal was caused by a terrible Coburn error, but I don't see people tearing him apart today.

It's spelled disaster too often for Grossmann. I really feel you're overstating his level of play.

I get it, he's a very likeable player. He works hard. He's gritty. he does the dirty work and sacrifices his body. I wish he was playing better. But he's not.
- Jsaquella

He's likable because he's a decent player.

Out of curiosity, how do Nick Grossman's current statistics rank against other players on other teams who play a comparable role?

Who do you think will be in goal tomorrow?

Can someone help me out here. Lets say we keep 3 defensemen on this team: Coburn, Grossman, and Schenn.

If you could pick any defensemen in the NHL, who would you pair with them.
Lets say the pairs would look like:

Pietrangelo Coburn
Suter Grossman
OEL Schenn

Then more realistically who would you pair with these players?
- 2Real

Who do you think will be in goal tomorrow?
- FlyersGrace

It will probably be Stone Cold.

Who do you think will be in goal tomorrow?
- FlyersGrace

Mason. It better be. They need to win.

I'm with Bill on this one. I don't expect Grossmann to be a #1 or 2 guy. But he is a #3 or #4 in the NHL. This weekend was bad. And I'm sure he knows it. And I'd be ok with a game or two benched. Partially due to the fact that I think he could use the rest. But if he's not I won't cry either. He worries me a lot less than Streit defensively. And people have brought up some good points as to why the numbers you've brought up would be low.

I think we all agree that we'd be happier if our depth on D was such that Grossmann wouldn't have to play on the 2nd pairing and would be a good 3rd pair guy.
- FlyersGrace

I'm not even referring to this weekend. My issues with Grossmann started long before this weekend.

And yes, he's better than Streit in his own end. But it's not as drastic as some would have you believe.

I also understand and agree with why his numbers would be so bad...but why are they so drastically different than anyone else's?

Out of curiosity, how do Nick Grossman's current statistics rank against other players on other teams who play a comparable role?
- johndewar

It's difficult to evaluate a player after he had a -5 weekend.

He's likable because he's a decent player.
- PhillySportsGuy

Matt Carle was better than decent, and people hated him.

Grossmann and Timonen get the benefit of the doubt because they are usually pretty steady. Streit gets criticized because his poor defensive play happens a lot. Coburn gets the benefit of the doubt when he's playing well. The Nash goal was caused by a terrible Coburn error, but I don't see people tearing him apart today.
- PhillySportsGuy

Grossmann's better in his own zone than Streit -- that's clear -- but at the same time, when a guy isn't playing well, that doesn't it's Streit's fault because he's a weaker defensive player.

Grossmann had a bad weekend. It happens. But, again, this narrative of "Streit's poor defensive play happens a lot" -- it doesn't happen any more or less than the third pairing's woes -- because Schenn and Meszaros are hidden and play FOUR fewer minutes per game -- or Grossmann himself.

It's a team sport -- Mark Streit's not winning a Norris, but damn, people! He's CLEARLY the third-best defenseman on the team -- for better or worse -- and he's not responsible for every goal that Nick Grossmann gives up!

It's difficult to evaluate a player after he had a -5 weekend.
- PhillySportsGuy

That's why I'm evaluating him based on his entire season.

I'm not even referring to this weekend. My issues with Grossmann started long before this weekend.

And yes, he's better than Streit in his own end. But it's not as drastic as some would have you believe.

I also understand and agree with why his numbers would be so bad...but why are they so drastically different than anyone else's?
- Jsaquella

Because he had a bad weekend. Before the weekend, he and Streit had a similar +/-. Grossmann was out against better competition and in more defensive purposes. Streit was in more favorable situations. Streit helps the PP so that adds to his positives. Grossmann helps the PK. They are close, but Grossmann is a little better.

Not a single defenseman on the Flyers has played consistently well over the course of the season. There is the problem. There isn't one guy you can pencil in where you know you are going to get solid play consistently.
Guys have played well at times, but all of them have had their fair share of struggles.

Everyone can agree that it's a terrible mix. Too many guys are redundant. Individually they aren't terrible dmen, but collectively it's a bad fit.

Matt Carle was better than decent, and people hated him.
- Jsaquella

And we all valued their opinions so much

It's difficult to evaluate a player after he had a -5 weekend.
- PhillySportsGuy

Well, I'd want a sample size greater than the last two games. It doesn't take a GEEKYSTATGEEK to see that Grossmann had a poopty weekend.

Mason. It better be. They need to win.
- PhillySportsGuy

Then who would you pair from available players

Not a single defenseman on the Flyers has played consistently well over the course of the season. There is the problem. There isn't one guy you can pencil in where you know you are going to get solid play consistently.
Guys have played well at times, but all of them have had their fair share of struggles.

Everyone can agree that it's a terrible mix. Too many guys are redundant. Individually they aren't terrible dmen, but collectively it's a bad fit.
- PLindbergh31

This is the truth -- singling out one guy on this defense...when the Flyers get strafed, one guy isn't the reason!

The entire defense has weaknesses. And sometimes, we run into teams that can exploit them, as a whole.

Quick teams KILL Grossmann, Schenn and Meszaros.

Physical teams bust up Streit, Gus and Timonen.

Smart teams that forecheck well give Coburn and Grossmann fits.

And because of this, they get exposed sometimes. It's not just one guy!

Matt Carle was better than decent, and people hated him.
- Jsaquella

I'm biased - I like Grossmann.
Matt Carle irked me because you felt like he never played up to his potential - lots of lazy plays (imo)... I don't get that vibe from Grossmann (most of the time).
Did I want to see Carle leave? Not necessarily. Lots of other issues on the team before Carle. what has been obvious though is that this team has had some serious D woes after Pronger went down.

Grossmann's better in his own zone than Streit -- that's clear -- but at the same time, when a guy isn't playing well, that doesn't it's Streit's fault because he's a weaker defensive player.

Grossmann had a bad weekend. It happens. But, again, this narrative of "Streit's poor defensive play happens a lot" -- it doesn't happen any more or less than the third pairing's woes -- because Schenn and Meszaros are hidden and play FOUR fewer minutes per game -- or Grossmann himself.

It's a team sport -- Mark Streit's not winning a Norris, but damn, people! He's CLEARLY the third-best defenseman on the team -- for better or worse -- and he's not responsible for every goal that Nick Grossmann gives up!
- AllInForFlyers

I think Grossmann is better and more consistent than Streit. Grossmann would be fine with a legit top 4, two-way defenseman. Streit would need Pronger in order to be a good even strength defenseman.

Then who would you pair from available players
- 2Real

Who is available?

This is the truth -- singling out one guy on this defense...when the Flyers get strafed, one guy isn't the reason!

The entire defense has weaknesses. And sometimes, we run into teams that can exploit them, as a whole.

Quick teams KILL Grossmann, Schenn and Meszaros.

Physical teams bust up Streit, Gus and Timonen.

Smart teams that forecheck well give Coburn and Grossmann fits.

And because of this, they get exposed sometimes. It's not just one guy!
- AllInForFlyers

Agreed. When you lack that top pairing player, it's going to have a trickle down effect on the entire defense core.