I'm biased - I like Grossmann.
Matt Carle irked me because you felt like he never played up to his potential - lots of lazy plays (imo)... I don't get that vibe from Grossmann (most of the time).
Did I want to see Carle leave? Not necessarily. Lots of other issues on the team before Carle. what has been obvious though is that this team has had some serious D woes after Pronger went down.
- FlyersGrace

If we were able to pair Carle with Grossmann, that would be a legit 2nd pairing. Then Streit and Schenn could do their song and dance on the third pairing and be shielded a lot more.

This is the truth -- singling out one guy on this defense...when the Flyers get strafed, one guy isn't the reason!

The entire defense has weaknesses. And sometimes, we run into teams that can exploit them, as a whole.

Quick teams KILL Grossmann, Schenn and Meszaros.

Physical teams bust up Streit, Gus and Timonen.

Smart teams that forecheck well give Coburn and Grossmann fits.

And because of this, they get exposed sometimes. It's not just one guy!
- AllInForFlyers

It wasn't my intent to single out Grossmann. They have a really bad mix on defense. Too many guys who lack either good puck skills or good hockey sense...or both. Not enough mobility. Too many guys who are mistake prone.

What it boiled down to me was, we've seen Schenn, Gustafsson & Meszaros benched for their poor play. Why does Grossmann get a break? I get why Streit does-he has a skill set that nobody else on the defense has, except for maybe Timonen.

But that's not the case for Grossmann.

This is the truth -- singling out one guy on this defense...when the Flyers get strafed, one guy isn't the reason!

The entire defense has weaknesses. And sometimes, we run into teams that can exploit them, as a whole.

Quick teams KILL Grossmann, Schenn and Meszaros.

Physical teams bust up Streit, Gus and Timonen.

Smart teams that forecheck well give Coburn and Grossmann fits.

And because of this, they get exposed sometimes. It's not just one guy!
- AllInForFlyers

Good analysis. How much do you think coaches with last change exploit this?

Grossmann and Timonen get the benefit of the doubt because they are usually pretty steady. Streit gets criticized because his poor defensive play happens a lot. Coburn gets the benefit of the doubt when he's playing well. The Nash goal was caused by a terrible Coburn error, but I don't see people tearing him apart today.
- PhillySportsGuy

Cause it wasn't really a 'terrible Coburn error' in my opinion. Nobody on the ice looked good on that play.

It wasn't my intent to single out Grossmann. They have a really bad mix on defense. Too many guys who lack either good puck skills or good hockey sense...or both. Not enough mobility. Too many guys who are mistake prone.

What it boiled down to me was, we've seen Schenn, Gustafsson & Meszaros benched for their poor play. Why does Grossmann get a break? I get why Streit does-he has a skill set that nobody else on the defense has, except for maybe Timonen.

But that's not the case for Grossmann.
- Jsaquella

Why does Streit get a pass from Berube? He has (frank)ed way a lot this year.

If we were able to pair Carle with Grossmann, that would be a legit 2nd pairing. Then Streit and Schenn could do their song and dance on the third pairing and be shielded a lot more.
- PhillySportsGuy

Problem with Carle / Grossmann would be no strong shot. Grossmann can shoot but isn't accurate. And we all know about Carle's shot
That said I'd try it out to see what you had in the mix. Carle's speed would help...
But this dream ain't happening.

I'm biased - I like Grossmann.
Matt Carle irked me because you felt like he never played up to his potential - lots of lazy plays (imo)... I don't get that vibe from Grossmann (most of the time).
Did I want to see Carle leave? Not necessarily. Lots of other issues on the team before Carle. what has been obvious though is that this team has had some serious D woes after Pronger went down.
- FlyersGrace

My issue is, where people found blame for Carle, they defend Grossmann.


I get that. I do. He's a very likeable guy. You know he's giving his all every shift. Hell, I like Grossmann. That doesn't change things though, because I'm trying to look at it in a purely analytical manner.

Cause it wasn't really a 'terrible Coburn error' in my opinion. Nobody on the ice looked good on that play.
- wolfhounds

It was poor overall communication. Timonen took the man, Coburn took the puck and Giroux skated directly next to Coburn. He had nowhere to go with the puck and played it right to a Ranger. He was put in a bad position, but made a terrible play with the puck.

My issue is, where people found blame for Carle, they defend Grossmann.


I get that. I do. He's a very likeable guy. You know he's giving his all every shift. Hell, I like Grossmann. That doesn't change things though, because I'm trying to look at it in a purely analytical manner.
- Jsaquella

And I'm glad you are. I don't have time to look all that poop up...

Problem with Carle / Grossmann would be no strong shot. Grossmann can shoot but isn't accurate. And we all know about Carle's shot
That said I'd try it out to see what you had in the mix. Carle's speed would help...
But this dream ain't happening.
- FlyersGrace

Not every pairing can have everything. Carle is a good passer and plays well when paired with a reliable defensive defenseman. They would be a pairing that could really help with breakouts. I'd sacrifice the booming shot for better breakouts any day

Why does Streit get a pass from Berube? He has (frank)ed way a lot this year.
- PhillySportsGuy

Because he's got a skill set that few other on this defense have. Streit is better in transition and has a better shot than any of the other defensemen. And despite handling the puck as much as anyone, he's got fewer giveaways than Grossmann, Coburn or Timonen.

What he brings they don't have an adequate replacement for. They do for Grossmann.

It wasn't my intent to single out Grossmann. They have a really bad mix on defense. Too many guys who lack either good puck skills or good hockey sense...or both. Not enough mobility. Too many guys who are mistake prone.

What it boiled down to me was, we've seen Schenn, Gustafsson & Meszaros benched for their poor play. Why does Grossmann get a break? I get why Streit does-he has a skill set that nobody else on the defense has, except for maybe Timonen.

But that's not the case for Grossmann.
- Jsaquella

I understand exactly what you're saying, and it's not that you're saying that Grossmann can't play, it's that at some point, if this mix doesn't get changed, we will continue to struggle against teams that do those things very well.

Grossmann simply got exposed this weekend against a team in Tampa that is very quick and forechecks with discipline, and against New York, which does have talented players and a coach who has won a lot of games.

It will happen to all of them, at some point, when they run into teams that they aren't well-suited to play.

Because he's got a skill set that few other on this defense have. Streit is better in transition and has a better shot than any of the other defensemen. And despite handling the puck as much as anyone, he's got fewer giveaways than Grossmann, Coburn or Timonen.

What he brings they don't have an adequate replacement for. They do for Grossmann.
- Jsaquella

Streit was giving this team very little for the first 25 games. He was never benched. He does bring more offense than any others, but when he wasn't bringing offense, he was reeeaallllyyy bad.

And I'm glad you are. I don't have time to look all that poop up...

- FlyersGrace

The numbers were easy. There's several sites that provide all of it in a few minutes

but rewatching the Flyers get scored on...that sucked.

Streit was giving this team very little for the first 25 games. He was never benched. He does bring more offense than any others, but when he wasn't bringing offense, he was reeeaallllyyy bad.
- PhillySportsGuy

He was. No argument. But the whole team struggled for the first 15-20 games. It wasn't limited to Streit.

Streit was giving this team very little for the first 25 games. He was never benched. He does bring more offense than any others, but when he wasn't bringing offense, he was reeeaallllyyy bad.
- PhillySportsGuy

If Berube was going to bench defensemen for poor play, he would be rotating guys in and out of the lineup constantly. You can't do that. You have to try and develop cohesion.

The numbers were easy. There's several sites that provide all of it in a few minutes

but rewatching the Flyers get scored on...that sucked.
- Jsaquella

I missed the Ranger game and I'm glad I did...
I got to see every glorious moment of our D implosion for Tampa though...

If Berube was going to bench defensemen for poor play, he would be rotating guys in and out of the lineup constantly. You can't do that. You have to try and develop cohesion.
- PLindbergh31

And hey, they managed to rotate themselves out with that lovely string of penalties last night that saw 3 of them in the box at one time for 11 secs.

Good analysis. How much do you think coaches with last change exploit this?
- FlyersGrace

I would -- it's tough, because as JSaq pointed out, the ultimate problem is foot speed -- the only one who can consistently skate themselves out of trouble is Coburn. But he won't carry the puck enough to relieve pressure on himself.

Streit will carry it, but he's not fast enough to do it consistently.

Gus was showing promise, but then he got hurt.

That is the killer with this team -- you can mitigate some of the weaknesses if they skated better, but they don't. So yeah, a coach with last change, or a coach with a lot of speed on his third and fourth lines...we struggle against those teams.

It was poor overall communication. Timonen took the man, Coburn took the puck and Giroux skated directly next to Coburn. He had nowhere to go with the puck and played it right to a Ranger. He was put in a bad position, but made a terrible play with the puck.
- PhillySportsGuy

It was a bad play across the board. Timonen and Stepan ran into Coburn along the wall, the puck slipped a few feet from Coburn where Kreider picked it up and passed it to a wide open Nash in the middle of the ice. And rewatching that play, Stepan was all alone on the one side of the net while Timonen, Coburn and G were all on the other. Nash could have passed the puck to Stepan for a slam-dunk, but instead he beat Emery with a point-blank wristshot.

Everything broke against the Flyers on that play...it was bad across the board.

Because he's got a skill set that few other on this defense have. Streit is better in transition and has a better shot than any of the other defensemen. And despite handling the puck as much as anyone, he's got fewer giveaways than Grossmann, Coburn or Timonen.

What he brings they don't have an adequate replacement for. They do for Grossmann.
- Jsaquella

But because he's the new guy in town and people somehow got the idea they should, every single time he does turn over the puck it is treated like an act of treason.

I understand exactly what you're saying, and it's not that you're saying that Grossmann can't play, it's that at some point, if this mix doesn't get changed, we will continue to struggle against teams that do those things very well.

Grossmann simply got exposed this weekend against a team in Tampa that is very quick and forechecks with discipline, and against New York, which does have talented players and a coach who has won a lot of games.

It will happen to all of them, at some point, when they run into teams that they aren't well-suited to play.
- AllInForFlyers

That's very true.

The thing with Grossmann...I've been saying it for awhile. Hell people on twitter seem to think I hate the guy. I don't...I just don't think he's played well this season.

He's had some very good games. He was great in the games this past week vs NJ and Montreal. I'd like to see him bottle that, because then I'd have zero complaints

And hey, they managed to rotate themselves out with that lovely string of penalties last night that saw 3 of them in the box at one time for 11 secs.
- bodiva88

Berube has done a much better job than I thought he would. The one issue that there has been little to no improvement is discipline. Taking as many penalties as ever.

I missed the Ranger game and I'm glad I did...
I got to see every glorious moment of our D implosion for Tampa though...
- FlyersGrace

I re-watched 33 goals scored on the Flyers while Grossmann was on ice this past week for a blog I wrote.

I'd rather watch the entire process for preparing a McDonald's burger, from cow to "food", and then eat it than do that again.

But because he's the new guy in town and people somehow got the idea they should, every single time he does turn over the puck it is treated like an act of treason.
- bodiva88

I will never understand why this fanbase does that. It started the first time Streit was on the ice for a goal.

It was like some people were waiting for it, like a starving man at a buffet table.