How bad does a 25-year-old dman (in a top-pairing role) have to be playing, and how ugly does his contract have to be, for him to only command a 2nd-rounder during the summer?

That would be like John Carlson getting traded for a 2nd this summer... which we can assume is pretty impossible, since there would be no shortage of teams lining up around the block for him, even though he's struggled at times in his own zone.

It's no secret that the Flyers are not getting much ROI for all the dollars they've been throwing at the blueline.... Mez is one of the contributors to that problem.
- Tomahawk

Talk about bang for your buck on the blueline.

Blackhaws cap hit for 6 dmen 23+ million
Flyers cap hit for 6 dmen 27+ million

How bad does a 25-year-old dman (in a top-pairing role) have to be playing, and how ugly does his contract have to be, for him to only command a 2nd-rounder during the summer?

That would be like John Carlson getting traded for a 2nd this summer... which we can assume is pretty impossible, since there would be no shortage of teams lining up around the block for him, even though he's struggled at times in his own zone.

It's no secret that the Flyers are not getting much ROI for all the dollars they've been throwing at the blueline.... Mez is one of the contributors to that problem.
- Tomahawk

he had a bad year after injury... sounds familiar... i'd bet other teams would have gladly given a second for the guy we had the first couple of seasons he was a flyer.

maybe he can bounce back again, maybe he can't. only time will tell but the pressbox won't help.

The big question is still the same one for me.
Will the Flyers be willing to trade core forward(s) and/or
prospects for a defenseman. That's if one even becomes
available. One of Simmonds, Brayden Schenn, Couturier, Voracek maybe with a pick
could maybe get it done.

Winnipeg is a mess. Say Bogosian or Enstrom becomes available, or even
PK Subban who maybe for whatever reason falls out of favor in Habville.

Simmonds plus a pick for PK.
Would you do it?

I think they may have to.
UFA will be overpriced, old and slim pickings.
- Marc D

People make it sound as if the only way to get a top-pairing dman is to give away a core forward...

ATL/WPG didn't have to give up Bryan Little, Evander Kane, etc to land Byfuglien. Dan Boyle was originally traded by FLA for a 5th. TOR managed to get Phaneuf for nothing more than a collection of overpaid spare parts. Brian Campbell was acquired for Steve Bernier and a late 1st-rounder. Ehrhoff was essentially salary-dumped by the Sharks.

The trick is to target potential top-pairing guys, or guys with some headroom to their games, instead only having eyes for the cream of the crop. That's really the only way to fix the problem on D while not creating new weaknesses elsewhere.

People make it sound as if the only way to get a top-pairing dman is to give away a core forward...

ATL/WPG didn't have to give up Bryan Little, Evander Kane, etc to land Byfuglien. Dan Boyle was originally traded by FLA for a 5th. TOR managed to get Phaneuf for nothing more than a collection of overpaid spare parts. Brian Campbell was acquired for Steve Bernier and a late 1st-rounder. Ehrhoff was essentially salary-dumped by the Sharks.

The trick is to target potential top-pairing guys, or guys with some headroom to their games, instead only having eyes for the cream of the crop. That's really the only way to fix the problem on D while not creating new weaknesses elsewhere.
- Tomahawk

Most of those guys aren't #1 defenseman. They are top pairing material, but not a guy that teams can lean on to shut opposing players down and produce points. Thats how I evaluate whether a guy is a #1 defenseman.

he had a bad year after injury... sounds familiar... i'd bet other teams would have gladly given a second for the guy we had the first couple of seasons he was a flyer.

maybe he can bounce back again, maybe he can't. only time will tell but the pressbox won't help.
- -davies-

It was a risk worth taking at the time... but it's hard to argue that they really got what they paid for, outside of one good season.

It was a risk worth taking at the time... but it's hard to argue that they really got what they paid for, outside of one good season.
- Tomahawk

They got a little unlucky too. The team's biggest need at the time (besides goalie) was depth on defense. Pronger, Timonen, Coburn and Carle really piled up the minutes the previous year. Mez was the perfect addition as a 5th defenseman. Injuries to Pronger forced Mez into the top 4. Injuries to Mez forced him to miss a lot of time and come back as a shell of his former self.

It's difficult to plan for those types of long term injuries.

Most of those guys aren't #1 defenseman. They are top pairing material, but not a guy that teams can lean on to shut opposing players down and produce points. Thats how I evaluate whether a guy is a #1 defenseman.
- PhillySportsGuy

Erik Karlsson, Kris Letang and PK Subban aren't #1 dman then? They're all really iffy defensively (PK was getting benched late in 3rd-periods earlier this year).

If you want a bonafide #1 defenseman, the only way that happens is if you give up a hell of a lot, or somehow get a Pronger like player in the draft with upside as big as the heavens.

In other words, its not happening any time soon so deal with what they have. Made the mistake before, unlikely to try it for a second time.

They got a little unlucky too. The team's biggest need at the time (besides goalie) was depth on defense. Pronger, Timonen, Coburn and Carle really piled up the minutes the previous year. Mez was the perfect addition as a 5th defenseman. Injuries to Pronger forced Mez into the top 4. Injuries to Mez forced him to miss a lot of time and come back as a shell of his former self.

It's difficult to plan for those types of long term injuries.
- PhillySportsGuy

i hate seeing it all laid out like that

Erik Karlsson, Kris Letang and PK Subban aren't #1 dman then? They're all really iffy defensively (PK was getting benched late in 3rd-periods earlier this year).
- Tomahawk

Letang and Subban have both gotten better defensively. Ask Pens fan who their most important defenseman is

They got a little unlucky too. The team's biggest need at the time (besides goalie) was depth on defense. Pronger, Timonen, Coburn and Carle really piled up the minutes the previous year. Mez was the perfect addition as a 5th defenseman. Injuries to Pronger forced Mez into the top 4. Injuries to Mez forced him to miss a lot of time and come back as a shell of his former self.

It's difficult to plan for those types of long term injuries.
- PhillySportsGuy

Upgrading over Parent and Krajicek wasn't exactly a tall task. They could have just as easily signed SOD and then looked for a more affordable puck-moving partner to play with him. Instead, they rolled the dice on a kid on a $23M deal to be their #5.

It fits into an overall pattern of over-correcting and over-compensating from year to year.

Erik Karlsson, Kris Letang and PK Subban aren't #1 dman then? They're all really iffy defensively (PK was getting benched late in 3rd-periods earlier this year).
- Tomahawk

Exactly -- there are maybe...what, three franchise defensemen in the NHL right now, guys who are mobile, big, strong offensively and defensively and durable.

Those guys are Shea Weber, Ryan Suter and Alex Pietrangelo.

There are other guys who are slightly below that group in some areas, the Drew Doughtys and Duncan Keiths of the world.

Every other defenseman has flaws that have to be mitigated. Don't get me wrong: I'd cry tears of joy if Erik Karlsson was on the Flyers. But he does have flaws, and he's still a top-pairing defenseman.

Very disappointing to see that the hard forecheck approach other teams used successfully against the Lavy coached Flyers works just as well vs the Berube coached Flyers.
- FlyerGuy

This is a good point! If the coach can teach THIS group of players how to beat it, then maybe THIS group needs some PLAYERS to be held accountable and moved. I'm not asking for dumb or ridiculous trades. I'm merely stating that if two coaches with different styles, have the same thing keep happening, then it's time to take a closer look at the personnel. This is as annoying as having to think that a shootout usually means a loss. Address it already!

Letang and Subban have both gotten better defensively. Ask Pens fan who their most important defenseman is
- PhillySportsGuy

So important that the primary debate with Pens fans right now is the realization that they are capable of winning without him... leading to thoughts of trading him for a winger?

Boyle, Campbell and Phaneuf were all much more advanced defensively than Letang/Subban/Karlsson at the time of their trades. They might not have been the kind of guys that get top-pairing minutes for Olympic teams, but that's not a knock on their worth as NHL talents.

now what do you think of coburn
- 2Real

Coburn's biggest flaw is wild, streaky inconsistency imo. When he's on his game, he's as solid as they come, phsyical and rangy in the defensive zone and shows some occasional offensive flair in moving the puck with speed and getting shots in on/near net. When he's off his game he's tentative and seems confused, makes bad decisions with and without the puck and lacks physicality. I think you can look at the first 15 games or so and see "bad" Coburn...then it was like a fire lit under him and we had "good" Coburn for a long stretch...and lately he's slipping, is he regressing to bad Coburn again?

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Upgrading over Parent and Krajicek wasn't exactly a tall task. They could have just as easily signed SOD and then looked for a more affordable puck-moving partner to play with him. Instead, they rolled the dice on a kid on a $23M deal to be their #5.

It fits into an overall pattern of over-correcting and over-compensating from year to year.
- Tomahawk

They were in win now mode as usual. The Flyers aren't the type of team to worry about the future. Mez made that team better. It was a good move at the time, but I feel the Flyers take on too much risk. It's ok to take risks. They just take too many. Big contracts, NMC, signing guys over 35. Those are all risky moves.

People make it sound as if the only way to get a top-pairing dman is to give away a core forward...

ATL/WPG didn't have to give up Bryan Little, Evander Kane, etc to land Byfuglien. Dan Boyle was originally traded by FLA for a 5th. TOR managed to get Phaneuf for nothing more than a collection of overpaid spare parts. Brian Campbell was acquired for Steve Bernier and a late 1st-rounder. Ehrhoff was essentially salary-dumped by the Sharks.

The trick is to target potential top-pairing guys, or guys with some headroom to their games, instead only having eyes for the cream of the crop. That's really the only way to fix the problem on D while not creating new weaknesses elsewhere.
- Tomahawk

I'm all for doing something like that.

I remember at the time the Flyers picked up Grossmann and another trade deadline defenseman who never panned out Oduya was also available.
They felt there was a bigger need for size then mobility I guess but in retrospect getting someone like Oduya would have been better.

Exactly -- there are maybe...what, three franchise defensemen in the NHL right now, guys who are mobile, big, strong offensively and defensively and durable.

Those guys are Shea Weber, Ryan Suter and Alex Pietrangelo.

There are other guys who are slightly below that group in some areas, the Drew Doughtys and Duncan Keiths of the world.

Every other defenseman has flaws that have to be mitigated. Don't get me wrong: I'd cry tears of joy if Erik Karlsson was on the Flyers. But he does have flaws, and he's still a top-pairing defenseman.
- AllInForFlyers

#1 Defenseman (Guys capable of putting up points and matching up against top lines every night)

Keith
Seabrooke
Suter
Weber
Pietrangelo
Doughty
OEL
Chara
Kronwall
Subban
McDonagh

I'm all for doing something like that.

I remember at the time the Flyers picked up Grossmann and another trade deadline defenseman who never panned out Oduya was also available.
They felt there was a bigger need for size then mobility I guess but in retrospect getting someone like Oduya would have been better.
- Marc D

At the time, the defense was Timo, Coburn, Carle, MAB and Gus. They did need size.

They were in win now mode as usual. The Flyers aren't the type of team to worry about the future. Mez made that team better. It was a good move at the time, but I feel the Flyers take on too much risk. It's ok to take risks. They just take too many. Big contracts, NMC, signing guys over 35. Those are all risky moves.
- PhillySportsGuy

My feelings exactly.

Roll the dice once on Mez? Sure, why not. Follow that up with more risks like Streit's bonehead contract, Grossmann's hasty extension, losing Carle to chase after Weber/Suter, another pricey reclamation in Schenn, and $6M for 39-year-old Kimmo?

Yikes.

So important that the primary debate with Pens fans right now is the realization that they are capable of winning without him... leading to thoughts of trading him for a winger?

Boyle, Campbell and Phaneuf were all much more advanced defensively than Letang/Subban/Karlsson at the time of their trades. They might not have been the kind of guys that get top-pairing minutes for Olympic teams, but that's not a knock on their worth as NHL talents.
- Tomahawk

I think those Pens fans who think Letang is expendable are dead wrong.

My feelings exactly.

Roll the dice once on Mez? Sure, why not. Follow that up with more risks like Streit's bonehead contract, Grossmann's hasty extension, losing Carle to chase after Weber/Suter, another pricey reclamation in Schenn, and $6M for 39-year-old Kimmo?

Yikes.
- Tomahawk

Holmgren has done a very poor job building the Flyers blueline. One that should cost him his job. He's had more than ample time to come up with a solution since Pronger went down.

You didn't even mention throwing picks away for the rotting coprse of Pavel Kubina.

My feelings exactly.

Roll the dice once on Mez? Sure, why not. Follow that up with more risks like Streit's bonehead contract, Grossmann's hasty extension, losing Carle to chase after Weber/Suter, another pricey reclamation in Schenn, and $6M for 39-year-old Kimmo?

Yikes.
- Tomahawk

Grossmann got his market value to pre-empt UFA status; no more and no less. With the hugely inflated prices on veteran defensemen, it was a decent deal on both sides.

I'm all for doing something like that.

I remember at the time the Flyers picked up Grossmann and another trade deadline defenseman who never panned out Oduya was also available.
They felt there was a bigger need for size then mobility I guess but in retrospect getting someone like Oduya would have been better.
- Marc D

The other was Kubina... and yeah, Oduya would have been a savvy add, but what's that compared to pulling a Hatcher/Rathje Twin Towers redux at the TDL? OMG, that Lucic is a BEAST! Gotta stop him!


There's a lot of young-ish dmen in the NHL that aren't household names, but could be in the coming years... Flyers should target those guys, not the Byfugliens and Yandles.