They did. They traded Talbot for him. And he played well. And now he's playing like Steve Downie without any of his strengths (tenacity, shreds of hockey sense, toughness).
- jmatchett383

I know. I still think downie fits well on that line. He plays a couple shifts with them each game and looks good. The team just doesn't want to move Vinny to the fourth line. Even the top line looks much better with raffl than Vinny. I don't think Vinny is a bad player, he just doesn't fit in the top 9 right now. It's mainly due to him being a much better center than winger. Right now, he's the fourth best center

i just looked at our AHL stats....

only 2 phantoms in the top 100 in scoring....


- PhillaBully

They play a very defensive system. I think they've allowed the fewest goals this year. It's sad to see art Ross Akeson not getting the freedom to dominate

I don't really buy into the whole "lack of effort" concept as being the biggest issue with this team. Obviously, there are times when effort IS an issue, but no more or no less than with other teams. In my opinion it's the overall lack of speed and quickness that makes them appear that they're not trying 100%.

We constantly see them being beaten to loose pucks, not because they're not hustling, but because they simply don't have the requisite team quickness necessary in today's game. This lack of team speed (and QUICKNESS, not just speed) has been killing them for years, especially in the defensive zone.

However, if Homer/Hexy can swap out of a couple of the slower D men, say Grossmann and Mez, and a slower forward or two, for some speed it will immediately appear as if they have improved their overall effort. Actually they'll just be winning more races to loose pucks ... which is a good thing.

The talent is there, but it's seriously missing some fast-twitch players. As soon as a healthy dose of speed and quickness is added to this lineup, the Flyers will be a much, much better team.
- FlyerGuy

That's where I am -- they don't think and move quickly enough to win against some of these teams.

It's been obvious all year, since the preseason. They can hide it for stretches, and they're good enough to beat plenty of teams.

But they likely can't/won't beat all of them. I've read a lot of posts, and watched all but two or three games this season. I think they could get better really quickly with the addition of two players...but the two types of players they need are the two hardest to get. And I don't know how they'll get them.

So...I'm resigned to the fact that the game-to-game results are what they're going to be. I'm going to try like hell to keep my eye on the big picture and just pray that some of these defensemen they've drafted can come in and help, and if they don't move Scott Laughton, that he will help.

It's tough. But there's only 30 games left in the season. Either they'll make a move, or they won't, or they'll make the playoffs, or they won't.

I'll try to keep the big picture in mind for these 30 games.

I have been saying this for a while. They really need to make some moves. Sitting pat with what we have isnt going to work. I think we need to move a center like Lecavalier for a young puck mover like Gardiner. Then we need to sign either Girardi or Markov. We also need to get a top scoring forward, and to me, that means Gaborik. Fill in the 4th line with Powe and Laughton. Sign Clemmenson as back-up.

Voracek-Giroux-Gaborik
Hartnell-Schenn-Simmonds
Read-Couturier-Raffl
Powe-Laughton-Rinaldo

Girardi-Gardiner
Grossmann-Coburn
Streit-Schenn

Mason
Clemmenson
- youarewrong

Marion Gaborik???? He's expensive, soft, pays no attention to his defensive responsibilities, and is about as durable as the three pigs' straw house!! On the other hand, Homer buds against himself for aging vets, well last their prime, at stupid money, for way too many years!!! In the words of Carlos Mencia....."Deet da dee!!!"

We need more toughness. Any chance we could lure Sean Avery out of retirement?

What's Matthew Barnaby's studio job buyout?
- jmatchett383

And we should definitely make a trade to get Carbomb back...team hasn't been the same since he left.

From earlier today on Bill's last thread.

Ed Snider is so friggin determined to win a cup at all costs that he's lost sight of how their cup teams were built. The 73-76 club wasn't built overnight.

Dornhoefer, Joe Watson, and Ed Van Impe came in the original expansion draft. Jim Watson, Bladon, Taylor, Clarke, Barber, Schultz, Kindrachuk, Saleski and Kelly were all drafted between 1969 and 1972. Lonsberry, Flett, Leach, Dupont, Parent, Crisp and Harris came in trades over 3 or 4 years and Ashbee and Nolet were added as free agents.

Instead of trying to restructure the team overnight, the Flyers decided back in 1969 after being swept and pummeled by the Blues that they were going to build a big, tough, team built around Bobby Clarke and a strong work ethic. 5 years later they won the Stanley Cup.

Sadly, Ed Snider seems to have forgotten all this and apparently no one else in the organization has the stones to tell the emporer that he's wearing no clothes.
They can go from coach to coach, they can even replace Holmgren with Hextall, but as long as Snider sits at the top its very doubtful that a long careful building of a championship caliber team is ever going to happen.



- BiggE

same thing with the 80's teams. Look at how many of those players were drafted and then they supplimented with trades such as Howe). I've said it 100 times so why hot make it 101. Snider said they needed to get back to the grassroots of how the teams in the 70's and 80's were built and that lasted maybe 2 seasons?

Are you trying to win games or lose them?
- PhillySportsGuy

he's building his tired, old straw-man argument and overstating what people are offering as fixes to this obvious-to-most middle of the pack team. any time someone suggests facing reality and recognizing they are more than a tweak or two away from legit contenders, here comes the "let's just dress the phantoms, and lose every game on purpose" nonsense. no one is saying that or ever has that i've seen.
now the risk id that if you go into rebuild mode you risk not being very good, which nobody wants; the problem is that they're not very good now and can't seem to figure it out with any consistency

Good blog Bill. I've been saying for a long time that, while the defensemen can be better, the forwards are just as responsible for the sub-par play in the defensive zone. While it's more obvious to see failed clears or sustained pressure by other teams forecheck and lay blame on the d men, more often than not, you'll see a lack of support from the forwards is at least partially at fault. The forwards need to do a better job of helping out down low and battling along the walls to break the forecheck...it seems like everytime a D man is able to check an attacker off the puck, another opposing player is nearby to pick it up and keep things going for them...also, many times when the D man has the puck he isn't given any good options because opposing players are positioned in between them and their mates.so they often have to force a low percentage pass that sometimes gets picked off or a clear that goes for an icing...while having high-end puck movers would help in some of these cases, it's not a panacea...when you watch the better teams, even those blessed with mobile, skilled puck movers, the forwards have more of an active backchecking presence in the defensive zone and support the D better...you often see a forward "carrying the mail" out of the D zone instead of the D being left alone, deep in the zone, without good options because there's too much of a gap between them and the forwards.

Under Lavy, a problem the Flyers often had in the D zone seemed to be to bunch up too much, sometimes with three or four Flyers on one guy with the puck, leaving open men in dangerous areas...under Berube there's less bunching up, which is good, but not enough support...it seems they often have multiple players guarding the interior zone/slot area while letting the opposition operate along the perimeter, which allows continuing pressure from the forecheck and open guys at the points...I think there's a happy medium they need to find, where they still have some coverage in the slot but not at the expense of leaving opposing players unmarked in other areas of the zone.

Time to trade all of the vets and tell the keepers that it's time to throw every game on purpose. In fact, let's just dress like 6 AHL throw-aways as our NHL roster so none of our younger good players get hurt.

Look, yeah, last night sucked, and this team has flaws. But my God, some of you people would have me believe that this team is as bad as the Quakers.
- jmatchett383

Winning the rest of the games this season wouldn't provide any advantage to the Flyers. Don't give me any "moral victories" nonsense, either.

Marion Gaborik???? He's expensive, soft, pays no attention to his defensive responsibilities, and is about as durable as the three pigs' straw house!! On the other hand, Homer buds against himself for aging vets, well last their prime, at stupid money, for way too many years!!! In the words of Carlos Mencia....."Deet da dee!!!"

- Hokeeguy9

Hartnell when he is on he is lovable but when he is not he is an undicipled clumsy fool. I would package him out if there was a way. We have enough grit without him. Vinny is rotting on the third line, play him with 28 and 93 or he is a waste.
Vinny is out of place on a third line and in my mind he has been a bust, as has Streit and it is time for #44 to retire. Kimmo who had a tremendous career seems to be brain dead half the time. He never used to be so undecisive and so many poor decisions with the puck.

same thing with the 80's teams. Look at how many of those players were drafted and then they supplimented with trades such as Howe). I've said it 100 times so why hot make it 101. Snider said they needed to get back to the grassroots of how the teams in the 70's and 80's were built and that lasted maybe 2 seasons?
- nastyflyergirl

I just hate how they feel the need to sign big free agents every offseason. They shouldn't go after these big fish unless it's a major need and a great player. It was fine to go after Suter but did they really need guys like lecavalier or parise?

he's building his tired, old straw-man argument and overstating what people are offering as fixes to this obvious-to-most middle of the pack team. any time someone suggests facing reality and recognizing they are more than a tweak or two away from legit contenders, here comes the "let's just dress the phantoms, and lose every game on purpose" nonsense. no one is saying that or ever has that i've seen.
now the risk id that if you go into rebuild mode you risk not being very good, which nobody wants; the problem is that they're not very good now and can't seem to figure it out with any consistency
- hogweed

Flyers are definitely an average, middle-of-the-pack team. No doubts about that.

he's building his tired, old straw-man argument and overstating what people are offering as fixes to this obvious-to-most middle of the pack team. any time someone suggests facing reality and recognizing they are more than a tweak or two away from legit contenders, here comes the "let's just dress the phantoms, and lose every game on purpose" nonsense. no one is saying that or ever has that i've seen.
now the risk id that if you go into rebuild mode you risk not being very good, which nobody wants; the problem is that they're not very good now and can't seem to figure it out with any consistency
- hogweed

I know his sarcasm. I tend to agree. I think several people are overreacting. There aren't many veteran flyers with trade value outside of timonen. I just don't see why we would trade him for a late first round pick when we have a shot at the playoffs. Trading timonen will elimate this team from playoff contention. He is far and away their best defenseman. Guys like grossmann hartnell Vinny and streit have very little value. Flyers will need to sweeten the deal for teams to take any of those guys.

Flyers are definitely an average, middle-of-the-pack team. No doubts about that.
- wolfhounds

I agree and what scares me is they are almost looking like they are starting a slide here like the way the season started. For some reason the team only goes when Giroux is going and right now he is starting to be invisible again. Something going on when a guy can be so good for stretches and then lose it and look totally invisible??

I agree and what scares me is they are almost looking like they are starting a slide here like the way the season started. For some reason the team only goes when Giroux is going and right now he is starting to be invisible again. Something going on when a guy can be so good for stretches and then lose it and look totally invisible??
- flyerdude17

If you recall, the couturier line actually got the team out of their slump to start the season

I know his sarcasm. I tend to agree. I think several people are overreacting. There aren't many veteran flyers with trade value outside of timonen. I just don't see why we would trade him for a late first round pick when we have a shot at the playoffs. Trading timonen will elimate this team from playoff contention. He is far and away their best defenseman. Guys like grossmann hartnell Vinny and streit have very little value. Flyers will need to sweeten the deal for teams to take any of those guys.
- PhillySportsGuy

part of me thinks that if you can make the playoffs you have a shot; part of me thinks that this team cannot win the cup as currently constructed.
if making the playoffs is your goal then ok, but i really want them to be legitimate contenders again

Just throw 3 seasons away, build the farm, and try again in 4 years.
- jmatchett383

I honestly feel like they should have seen the rebuild through when they traded frick and frack. patience will never be in Snider's vocaulary and while I appreciate his desire to win, I feel as tho its has hindered this organization. Just my opinion

the Flyers should finish with the 16th pick in the draft and McKeown or Martin should become a Flyer

I don't think the Flyers have a single "terrible" defenseman on an individual level -- they are all bonafide NHL Dmen . What I worry about it is the mix of players. They have too many 4th to 6th Dmen and not top 3s.
- bmeltzer

Agreed...Pronger was to be that lynch pin, alpha D man, and his loss has had a domino effect...Timonen has to kind of be that defacto #1 guy even though he's not really capable of that (anymore), and other players are forced into a position to play over their abilities as a (sometimes #1 when Timo can't) #2, or 3 when, like you said, they're probably more of a 4 or 5 or 6...that's why I consider the D in in flux...they ultimately still need to find one or two top pairing guys to replace Pronger (and Timonen)...I'd rather see them be patient and try to make reasonable deals for those types, or young players that could become that type as well as continuing to develop guys from within, as opposed to making desperation moves (or signings) for the short term fix...like trading a B Schenn, Couturier or Simmer for say, a Dan Boyle or some another vet past his prime. I think if they take their time and not go crazy trying to go for it, good solutions will materialize in the next 12-18 months.

I just read on TSN that Mike Green is available and the Caps might be looking for a defensive D-man. If the Caps were willing would you trade Luke Schenn for Green?

It's simple. Bad habits are happening and this team is in a funk.

Let's hope they can get back to their winning ways. I'm pumped for this gauntlet. Good feeling about it

I just read on TSN that Mike Green is available and the Caps might be looking for a defensive D-man. If the Caps were willing would you trade Luke Schenn for Green?
- mickel25

Yes.

I just read on TSN that Mike Green is available and the Caps might be looking for a defensive D-man. If the Caps were willing would you trade Luke Schenn for Green?
- mickel25

Not really. Green is atrocious in his own end. His offense has also disappeared.

I just read on TSN that Mike Green is available and the Caps might be looking for a defensive D-man. If the Caps were willing would you trade Luke Schenn for Green?
- mickel25

Is this a trick question? Straight-up? 18 days a week.

Yes.
- bmeltzer

Really? He hasn't been the same since the injuries. Although Schenn has had a bad year too