Yes. I'm sure the players would play with a ton of confidence knowing that a rough stretch will get them benched.
- PhillySportsGuy

I think you're twisting it around. He means guys making dumb decisions over and over and guys being consistently lazy, not guys just having a rough patch.

I think you're twisting it around. He means guys making dumb decisions over and over and guys being consistently lazy, not guys just having a rough patch.
- funmaster18

Yes, plus extended poor play. IMO, Grossmann has been pretty bad for most of the season. He's been downright brutal for most of the last month.

I think you're twisting it around. He means guys making dumb decisions over and over and guys being consistently lazy, not guys just having a rough patch.
- funmaster18

And it always gets twisted toward the negative, when people say stuff.

But on days like today, it tends to get ignored that many of the same people who get accused of being negative are also the same who say,

1. Brayden Schenn has earned the right to play center on the second line, because of how well he played there.

2. It wasn't fair for Steve Downie to lose his spot on the third line after getting injured, when the line of Read-Couturier-Downie was effective, simply because Lecavalier had to get back in the lineup

This stuff isn't personal -- everybody wants to see the team win. But overlooking some players who are not playing well, who have clear limitations -- these aren't the 1970s Montreal Canadiens we're talking about, with Larry Robinson on defense.

Some of these players have limitations and will need to be replaced.

And it always gets twisted toward the negative, when people say stuff.

But on days like today, it tends to get ignored that many of the same people who get accused of being negative are also the same who say,

1. Brayden Schenn has earned the right to play center on the second line, because of how well he played there.

2. It wasn't fair for Steve Downie to lose his spot on the third line after getting injured, when the line of Read-Couturier-Downie was effective, simply because Lecavalier had to get back in the lineup

This stuff isn't personal -- everybody wants to see the team win. But overlooking some players who are not playing well, who have clear limitations -- these aren't the 1970s Montreal Canadiens we're talking about, with Larry Robinson on defense.

Some of these players have limitations and will need to be replaced.
- AllInForFlyers

It's the Vinny dilemma. That's the problem here.

When this team is healthy, where do we put him?

Do we break the Raffl-G-Voracek chemistry? Split up the Hartnell-Schenn-Simmonds line? Blow up what was one of most dominant Flyer lines in recent memory in the Downie-Coots-Read line?

Do we REALLY put Vinny on the 4th line?

This is the problem. Vinny isn't a 4th liner. But, I think on this team, we have no choice but to put him there. Those lines up there in that little paragraph are what this team needs to roll out on the ice night in and night out, until something (or someone) breaks. Those line combos far and away put this team in the best position to win.

I think the best course of action is indeed to put Lecavlier on the 4th line. Let him play center. Hell maybe it'll spark him and he comes out and plays like he did in November.

Give him 4th line 5v5 minutes because of his terrible turnovers and his glaring blackhole-ness, and hell put him out there on both PP units.

If he ignites, then we have a weapon. If not, it's a powerplay specialist. We need to make due with what is on this team, because there's no other REASONABLE alternative. I've been beating that drum, and we just read Bill's similar take.

Yes, plus extended poor play. IMO, Grossmann has been pretty bad for most of the season. He's been downright brutal for most of the last month.
- Jsaquella

Grossman's play has been declining over the last two years due to wear and tear of the style he plays. Never a fast skater to begin with he's slowed down and as more injuries accumulate it will only get worse. The more the physical abilities to deteriorate the more pressure there is to play smarter. To make better decisions and to make them faster. He already has more penalties this year than any other full season he's played since his sophomore season. He is on pace to have this season be his most penalized, ever. Add on top of that his limited puck handling skills you can see what Luke Schenn will look like in 5 years.

That said he can be a good complementary piece if he has a good #3 defenseman partnered with him. The Flyers don't have that. Because of the current makeup of the team Grossman is being asked to do more than he's capable of doing consistantly at this point in his career.

I personally am not in favor of trying to force this team into one of the final playoff spots. I'd rather trade Grossman to someone like Boston who can make better use of his skills in the time he has left.

The guy is one more leg injury from being out of the league and the Flyers should be focusing more on the next 2 years rather than hoping to squeak into the playoffs this year.

The Flyers focusing on having to make the playoffs every year and going for broke every year are why they are in this mess.

Tim Panaccio
@tpanotchCSN
Hartnell had maintenance day today. Hum? Showed up at the Carnival with a walking boot and would not discuss it. Took a shot off the foot

Tim Panaccio
@tpanotchCSN
Should mention Holmgren said he has been wearing it lately but i dont recall seeing him in one on Saturday

It's the Vinny dilemma. That's the problem here.

When this team is healthy, where do we put him?

Do we break the Raffl-G-Voracek chemistry? Split up the Hartnell-Schenn-Simmonds line? Blow up what was one of most dominant Flyer lines in recent memory in the Downie-Coots-Read line?

Do we REALLY put Vinny on the 4th line?

This is the problem. Vinny isn't a 4th liner. But, I think on this team, we have no choice but to put him there. Those lines up there in that little paragraph are what this team needs to roll out on the ice night in and night out, until something (or someone) breaks. Those line combos far and away put this team in the best position to win.

I think the best course of action is indeed to put Lecavlier on the 4th line. Let him play center. Hell maybe it'll spark him and he comes out and plays like he did in November.

Give him 4th line 5v5 minutes because of his terrible turnovers and his glaring blackhole-ness, and hell put him out there on both PP units.

If he ignites, then we have a weapon. If not, it's a powerplay specialist. We need to make due with what is on this team, because there's no other REASONABLE alternative. I've been beating that drum, and we just read Bill's similar take.
- Giroux_Is_God

Not only should VL be on the 4th line, but a line should be built around him in a way that would give the Flyers a 4th line that could supply both energy and chip in a goal now and then. The Flyers have enough guys that kill penalties so get Hall out of the lineup and sit Rosehill as well. Put Rinaldo on Vinnies right and either McGinn, Akeson or Cousins on his left and let this line play 7-8 minutes a game. VL would still get pp time and could occasionally be spotted on the top line.

Forget the contract, forget the length of his career, right now, on this team, the 4th line is where he belongs.

I am just amazed. Every Flyers writer talks about the defense and everytime Braydon Coburn's name is not mentioned. He is our number 2 defenseman and yet constantly turns the puck over, out of position, and countless times has deflected a puck into our own net. Why does he continue to get a pass? He wouldn't crack the lineup for teams like Boston and Chicago. He would be a bottom pairing defensemen for the rest of the playoff teams. Our number 2 guy has to better than this but yet you all harp on Grossman, Meszaros and Schenn. After Timmonen is gone which most likely this will be his last season as a Flyer we have NOBODY. How far do you think this team will go with Coburn as our number 1?

It's the Vinny dilemma. That's the problem here.

When this team is healthy, where do we put him?

Do we break the Raffl-G-Voracek chemistry? Split up the Hartnell-Schenn-Simmonds line? Blow up what was one of most dominant Flyer lines in recent memory in the Downie-Coots-Read line?

Do we REALLY put Vinny on the 4th line?

This is the problem. Vinny isn't a 4th liner. But, I think on this team, we have no choice but to put him there. Those lines up there in that little paragraph are what this team needs to roll out on the ice night in and night out, until something (or someone) breaks. Those line combos far and away put this team in the best position to win.

I think the best course of action is indeed to put Lecavlier on the 4th line. Let him play center. Hell maybe it'll spark him and he comes out and plays like he did in November.

Give him 4th line 5v5 minutes because of his terrible turnovers and his glaring blackhole-ness, and hell put him out there on both PP units.

If he ignites, then we have a weapon. If not, it's a powerplay specialist. We need to make due with what is on this team, because there's no other REASONABLE alternative. I've been beating that drum, and we just read Bill's similar take.
- Giroux_Is_God

Those...are the kind of tough decisions that we're talking about.

If it were me, I'd put Vinny on the fourth line and try very hard to acquire another winger who complements him: A speedy, two-way forward who has better than average hockey sense, offensively. Adam Hall would remain on the wing, to provide defensive support.

He should be used as you describe -- on the PP, in the neutral zone and offensive zone. Those minutes are there for Lecavalier. They're there, in the course of a game.

The problem: They're not going to do that.

Not only should VL be on the 4th line, but a line should be built around him in a way that would give the Flyers a 4th line that could supply both energy and chip in a goal now and then. The Flyers have enough guys that kill penalties so get Hall out of the lineup and sit Rosehill as well. Put Rinaldo on Vinnies right and either McGinn, Akeson or Cousins on his left and let this line play 7-8 minutes a game. VL would still get pp time and could occasionally be spotted on the top line.

Forget the contract, forget the length of his career, right now, on this team, the 4th line is where he belongs.
- BiggE

You should've posted that two minutes earlier, Old Man! I could've just agreed with yours!

Here's other things about Lecavalier, for example:

He knew, when he signed that contract, that at some point he was moving down in the lineup, or he was moving to the wing.

He played well the first month, got hurt, Brayden Schenn started playing well in the middle, and Lecavalier hasn't been able to find chemistry with anyone, as of now. It could still happen, but to this point, it hasn't.

But Lecavalier's no idiot. He's been in the league since he was 18 years old. He knows the deal.

He saw Dave Andreychuk playing third-line checking center for Tampa, back when Lecavalier and Brad Richards were the alpha dogs, when they won a Stanley Cup -- the same Andreychuk who scored about a billion goals as a first-line winger when he was young.

Sometimes, a coach is doing a player a favor by moving them down, when it's time. It's up to the player to decide if that's what they want to do -- Jeremy Roenick was a fourth-liner in San Jose his last few years. Mike Modano was more banged up, struggled with moving down and retired.

The Flyers can, and should, give Lecavalier the types of wingers that will help him be successful. But Lecavalier will have to make adjustments to his game, as well, and the coaching staff will have to manage the roster according to where a player is in their career, especially if that roster has multiple players with clear limitations.

Thanks Bill. As usual, good stuff.
I see now more than ever, how we lack a vocal leader. Pronger, or Lindros would be in someone's business, if they were playing like we are right now.
The bad habit issue is one that I agree with. The players for some reason lack motivation, or an ability to keep the intensity going. Have they really dominated a game this season?
What really worried me about last season was the lock out period. There was a complaint about those players that were playing in the AHL during that time. The NHL regulars just didn't seem to focus on playing the game, and keeping in shape.
That work ethic has me worried about some of the players. If they lack character, or not held accountable for their bad play, then it seems like they just don't care. They are getting paid, and that's all that seems to matter.
In addition, the team really needs to practice on their passing, and clearing skills. Man, if I see another no look pass, I will throw a shoe at the T.V. If I see another pushing of the puck as an attempt to clear the D zone, I will spit on my hockey cards...lol. It's the simple stuff that the players seem to get lazy on, and if they need to sit, or have more practice to get the message, then so be it. Bring up the AHL guys, and get the cocky NHL players thinking about their job security.
Finally, quit changing the line up. Let these guys gel a little. How can they develop any chemistry if they are on different lines every other shift. Be patient.
Anyway, enjoy the day free game.

You should've posted that two minutes earlier, Old Man! I could've just agreed with yours!

- AllInForFlyers

I will say this, for those of us who have been labeled as "negatrons" or whatever name you wish to use.

The days of the Bullies, the days of Lindros, are long dead. For many of us, the younger crew, we never really experienced those years, to go back and reflect on.

I have been a growing fan of this team essentially from the time I moved to Canada. Who started listening to them on NHL radio when I didn't know the websites for free online feeds. Who waited patiently for them to be on TV up here.

Since probably about that 2004 year, and loss against Tampa, I have tried to watch as many games as I can manage. What I am getting at, is for the younger crew, those who do not have those glory days to look back on, we have increasingly seen a headless chicken routine from management, and that is where the frustration comes from.

I am a fan of this team, and have devoted a decent amount of time into it. I will not for one second, give them a pass where I think they could have done better. Philadelphia is an attractive player destination, has an unlimited amount of money toward its players, and one of the biggest fan bases in the NHL. There are always hills and valleys with any team in a salary cap world. However the increasing amount of foolishly throwing money at the wrong players, mismanaging the cap and being chronically slow to react to the trends of the league and how the game is played does not get a pass from me.

I am a fan, more than likely always will be, but for those of us who do not have those glory days to look back on, the issues and headless chicken stuff we have seen from the ice up to management, it breeds frustration. When the organization has every tool/advantage available to it in the league, something not every team can say.

You can ask any poster who was around when I, joined here in 2008. Its not a direct reference to me but to the time. Since then, with the direction the team has taken and kind of becoming a laughing stock in the league, how can you not expect some backlash? I'd urge Bill, who I respect and come to read his blogs daily, or anyone else, to consider this viewpoint.

No grip driving in the frozen north. (took myself)

I am just amazed. Every Flyers writer talks about the defense and everytime Braydon Coburn's name is not mentioned. He is our number 2 defenseman and yet constantly turns the puck over, out of position, and countless times has deflected a puck into our own net. Why does he continue to get a pass? He wouldn't crack the lineup for teams like Boston and Chicago. He would be a bottom pairing defensemen for the rest of the playoff teams. Our number 2 guy has to better than this but yet you all harp on Grossman, Meszaros and Schenn. After Timmonen is gone which most likely this will be his last season as a Flyer we have NOBODY. How far do you think this team will go with Coburn as our number 1?
- Daveflyers36

dont' say coburn is bad here some people still drinking the kool-aid and think he's good

I will say this, for those of us who have been labeled as "negatrons" or whatever name you wish to use.

The days of the Bullies, the days of Lindros, are long dead. For many of us, the younger crew, we never really experienced those years, to go back and reflect on.

I have been a growing fan of this team essentially from the time I moved to Canada. Who started listening to them on NHL radio when I didn't know the websites for free online feeds. Who waited patiently for them to be on TV up here.

Since probably about that 2004 year, and loss against Tampa, I have tried to watch as many games as I can manage. What I am getting at, is for the younger crew, those who do not have those glory days to look back on, we have increasingly seen a headless chicken routine from management, and that is where the frustration comes from.

I am a fan of this team, and have devoted a decent amount of time into it. I will not for one second, give them a pass where I think they could have done better. Philadelphia is an attractive player destination, has an unlimited amount of money toward its players, and one of the biggest fan bases in the NHL. There are always hills and valleys with any team in a salary cap world. However the increasing amount of foolishly throwing money at the wrong players, mismanaging the cap and being chronically slow to react to the trends of the league and how the game is played does not get a pass from me.

I am a fan, more than likely always will be, but for those of us who do not have those glory days to look back on, the issues and headless chicken stuff we have seen from the ice up to management, it breeds frustration. When the organization has every tool/advantage available to it in the league, something not every team can say.

You can ask any poster who was around when I, joined here in 2008. Its not a direct reference to me but to the time. Since then, with the direction the team has taken and kind of becoming a laughing stock in the league, how can you not expect some backlash? I'd urge Bill, who I respect and come to read his blogs daily, or anyone else, to consider this viewpoint.
- flyer_nutter

It's ok you're fine in my book some people are still living in the glory of the cups in the 70s... some people want more

It's ok you're fine in my book some people are still living in the glory of the cups in the 70s... some people want more
- 2Real

Haha not really where I was heading with my post but alright. Just for curiosity, I know you are not fan of Coburn, and my nickname of Mr. Consistency for him still isn't completely exorcised.

I would say though that he has grown on me. He is not a guy you want playing top pairing minutes, because its not the players he is. However if you limit his time, he can be pretty effective. The Flyers just haven't had better, so he is forced into the role.

What Im getting at, is hypothetically what would you give him up for? If its not a top 20 first rounder, I'd keep him.

The Flyers are 8 and 15 against teams currently in a playoff position. None of those loses were in overtime. They are 3 and 10 against teams with 60 pts or more. So it is not wrong to say the flyers haven't beaten anybody but bad teams. They have 21 of the next 29 games again those playoff teams with 17 games against those teams with 60 or more points.

Haha not really where I was heading with my post but alright. Just for curiosity, I know you are not fan of Coburn, and my nickname of Mr. Consistency for him still isn't completely exorcised.

I would say though that he has grown on me. He is not a guy you want playing top pairing minutes, because its not the players he is. However if you limit his time, he can be pretty effective. The Flyers just haven't had better, so he is forced into the role.

What Im getting at, is hypothetically what would you give him up for? If its not a top 20 first rounder, I'd keep him.
- flyer_nutter

I honestly wouldnt even consider moving Coburn unless a team blew us out of the water with an offer.

We need to rebuild the D and he would be our best piece to keep in place and build with.

dont' say coburn is bad here some people still drinking the kool-aid and think he's good
- 2Real

People watch a player who is being asked to take on a role beyond his capabilities fail, and they think that player stinks. Braydon Coburn is a 3/4 dman, asking him to be a top pair shutdown guy is no different than if they asked B Schenn to be a 1st line franchise center. Its simply more than he can handle.

Timonen-Coburn is a 2nd pairing in 2014. However since the rest of the D are 3rd pairing guys they are forced to match up against the oppositions best players on a nightly basis, and, against top teams especially, they will be exposed.

Coburn is a solid, mobile 2nd pair guy who any GM in the league would be happy to have. Expecting to be a number 1 pairing guy, unless you have a Weber or Suter to pair him with, is simply expecting too much.

Haha not really where I was heading with my post but alright. Just for curiosity, I know you are not fan of Coburn, and my nickname of Mr. Consistency for him still isn't completely exorcised.

I would say though that he has grown on me. He is not a guy you want playing top pairing minutes, because its not the players he is. However if you limit his time, he can be pretty effective. The Flyers just haven't had better, so he is forced into the role.

What Im getting at, is hypothetically what would you give him up for? If its not a top 20 first rounder, I'd keep him.
- flyer_nutter

I'd trade coburn for Demers or Enstrom (Enstrom would cost more) and pair one of the two with Schenn as the 5/6th pair

People watch a player who is being asked to take on a role beyond his capabilities fail, and they think that player stinks. Braydon Coburn is a 3/4 dman, asking him to be a top pair shutdown guy is no different than if they asked B Schenn to be a 1st line franchise center. Its simply more than he can handle.

Timonen-Coburn is a 2nd pairing in 2014. However since the rest of the D are 3rd pairing guys they are forced to match up against the oppositions best players on a nightly basis, and, against top teams especially, they will be exposed.

Coburn is a solid, mobile 2nd pair guy who any GM in the league would be happy to have. Expecting to be a number 1 pairing guy, unless you have a Weber or Suter to pair him with, is simply expecting too much.
- BiggE

coburn is not the dman we need right now we already have Grossman and Schenn who can do what he does

dont' say coburn is bad here some people still drinking the kool-aid and think he's good
- 2Real

OH MY GOD COBURN AND HARTNELL ARE THE TWO WORST PLAYERS EVER TRADE THEM NOW.

I hope you get hit by a very large truck, Captain Optimism.

coburn is not the dman we need right now we already have Grossman and Schenn who can do what he does
- 2Real

i think its the other way around for you guys. schenn is the one you dont need because he is what grossman/coburn are