A complete analysis would look at who Read and Couturier have played with when not playing with Grossmann. Could it be that they're playing in those D zone starts with a better defense pair in Timonen and Coburn, then Grossmann and Striet are? And that is the cause of why the numbers are better in that situation? Versus they're worse because Grossmann has played poorly this year? This is where the analysis and context comes in.
- MJL

Aren't you making their point? You can't say they're not worse because Grossman and whomever he is partnered with (and I believe these stats say pairing is agnostic) as a pair are bad and then say but they are better because Timmo and Coby are better. The mind boggles.

Aren't you making their point? You can't say they're not worse because Grossman and whomever he is partnered with (and I believe these stats say pairing is agnostic) as a pair are bad and then say but they are better because Timmo and Coby are better. The mind boggles.
- bodiva88

DING DING DING DING

I think the difference between the two is huge. Which is why Coaches look at game tape as the primary means for assessing how a team or individual players have played, after the fact. I think if there is a solid knowledge of defensive zone play, then there shouldn't be much disagreement.
- MJL

Dave Tippett assigns the whole team individual grades based on proprietary metrics after each game. Ray Shero and Dan Byslma are seen on 24/7 doing something very similar.

Increasingly, player evaluation will involve both metrics and tape -- it's never been an either/or proposition -- everybody will do both eventually.

(Unless you're Brian Burke)

Was just thinking how funny it would be if the Kings landed Vanek in a deal that sends Richie back east.
- hereticpride

I think some Flyers fans would damned near lose their minds if Richards were traded back East.

if you truly think that grossmann, given his play lately (however you interpret it) gives you a better chance to win in the upcoming game, then no, dont bench him. but i do think that a one game benching can have positive results in certain situations. granted, it can also have negative ramifications in others, but i dont view a veteran, hard nosed, bottom pairing defenseman as someone who will emotionally fall apart.
- stayinthefnnet

I agree, if it happened, Grossmann would handle like the Pro he is. I would really like to see some of the other Flyers defenseman, other them Timonen, placed in the situations Grossmann has faced game in and game out this Season. Then we would see a true and accurate comparison between players.

I think some Flyers fans would damned near lose their minds if Richards were traded back East.
- johndewar

Yeah -- elements of this fanbase can't get over the fact that Patrick Sharp was traded nine years ago.

Seeing The Captain six times a year would be more than enough to make some folks stroke out

I think the difference between the two is huge. Which is why Coaches look at game tape as the primary means for assessing how a team or individual players have played, after the fact. I think if there is a solid knowledge of defensive zone play, then there shouldn't be much disagreement.
- MJL

This not withstanding, player development is also heavily influenced by the organization he plays for. How many times have we seen players that show real promise, and tail off after being moved in a deal, or see players that did t pan out on a team, only to get much better on another team? There are just too many factors to assess, and with us not being in the GM's office, our opinions need be taken with those limitations in mind. Not that we won't opine vociferously anyway!

I think some Flyers fans would damned near lose their minds if Richards were traded back East.
- johndewar

Well at the very least it would shut a few people up still mad about the trade. He's a shell of his former self.

Dave Tippett assigns the whole team individual grades based on proprietary metrics after each game. Ray Shero and Dan Byslma are seen on 24/7 doing something very similar.

Increasingly, player evaluation will involve both metrics and tape -- it's never been an either/or proposition -- everybody will do both.
- Tomahawk

I read the article you posted on that the other day. And it fails to back up advanced statistics. All Tippet has done is devised a grading system to provide feedback to his players. What do you think the grade is based on? Actually watching the player play in the game and reviewing game tape? Or going on behindthe net and looking at advanced statistics?

Well at the very least it would shut a few people up still mad about the trade. He's a shell of his former self.
- hereticpride

That's true, though...his decline has been swift

I think some Flyers fans would damned near lose their minds if Richards were traded back East.
- johndewar

id take him for the third line

Grossmann debate continues for another day eh?....

Yeah -- elements of this fanbase can't get over the fact that Patrick Sharp was traded nine years ago.

Seeing The Captain six times a year would be more than enough to make some folks stroke out
- AllInForFlyers

The success that Schenn & Siimonds have had mitigates the trade.

Sharp turned into a 40 goal scorer & the Flyers got a 3rd line KHL winger in return. If Ellison had even become Max Talbot, not many would be as pissed.

But yeah, 9 years is a long time ago...time to let go

This not withstanding, player development is also heavily influenced by the organization he plays for. How many times have we seen players that show real promise, and tail off after being moved in a deal, or see players that did t pan out on a team, only to get much better on another team? There are just too many factors to assess, and with us not being in the GM's office, our opinions need be taken with those limitations in mind. Not that we won't opine vociferously anyway!
- Hokeeguy9

Absolutely, because there is a human element involved there. Team's make mistakes with players. Some players just aren't a good fit on a team, or need a change of scenery to mature. And on and on.

When looking at defensive zone play. With a knowledge of how a team defends and simple defensive zone concepts. An accurate reading of a play can be made.

I read the article you posted on that the other day. And it fails to back up advanced statistics. All Tippet has done is devised a grading system to provide feedback to his players. What do you think the grade is based on? Actually watching the player play in the game and reviewing game tape? Or going on behindthe net and looking at advanced statistics?
- MJL

He tracks and assigns values to on-ice events, from things as mundane as goals/hits/fights, to things as strange as assists on attempted shots.

I agree, if it happened, Grossmann would handle like the Pro he is. I would really like to see some of the other Flyers defenseman, other them Timonen, placed in the situations Grossmann has faced game in and game out this Season. Then we would see a true and accurate comparison between players.
- MJL

grossmann is definitely in a no win position. he is going to be placed in situations in which you cant really win, its only a matter of how little you lose as to how good you are actually performing. its just the nature of a stay at home, bottom pairing defender. he really shouldnt have gleaming stats.

im definitely a fan of his, but if im giving my honest opinion he has had a rough go over the course of the past month, just from watching him play. but then again, he doesnt really have much room for error. if he makes a mistake, its in the back of the net. its not as if his partner will bail him out. and if the forwards arent helping him get to a loose puck, he certainly isnt going to win a footrace to it, even on his best day. especially when hes out there against good opposition.

Grossmann debate continues for another day eh?....
- five4fighting10

my brain hurts

The success that Schenn & Siimonds have had mitigates the trade.

Sharp turned into a 40 goal scorer & the Flyers got a 3rd line KHL winger in return. If Ellison had even become Max Talbot, not many would be as pissed.

But yeah, 9 years is a long time ago...time to let go
- Jsaquella

The success that Schenn & Siimonds have had mitigates the trade.

Sharp turned into a 40 goal scorer & the Flyers got a 3rd line KHL winger in return. If Ellison had even become Max Talbot, not many would be as pissed.

But yeah, 9 years is a long time ago...time to let go
- Jsaquella

Certainly, they got brutalized in that deal. It doesn't happen to them often, but in that case, yes. But I'm one of those people who if/when they get traded or leave in free agency, they're gone.

I think it's interesting to see if guys develop further when they're gone, but really, there's 700-plus guys in the NHL, more in various farm systems, even more in junior hockey and Europe.

If I'm going to obsess about a guy, it's going to be someone who could help in the future or is killing me now

my brain hurts
- 2Real

I've followed all 28 pages today. I feel fortunate that my brain hasn't exploded

And I say that in the regard that, as someone who believes Nicklas Grossmann has not played well, it is pretty much beyond my comprehension how the Flyers could currently be out of a playoff spot, after missing the playoffs last year, with metrics across the board that scream average, and yet, one guy with sincere limitations is afforded the mantle of "it's not him, it's everybody else."

It is beyond my comprehension how Nicklas Grossmann has ascended to a state where if he's on the ice and a goal is scored, the forwards didn't backcheck or his defensive partner hung him out to dry or he had bad puck luck or he was put in a position to fail

You'd think that Grossmann wasn't traded from Dallas because they found him expendable. Instead, the Stars simply bestowed the missing piece upon the Flyers out of the goodness of their hearts

He tracks and assigns values to on-ice events, from things as mundane as goals/hits/fights, to things as strange as assists on attempted shots.
- Tomahawk

And really, how much different is this from the "eyeball test" when reviewing footage? Because he calls what he's keeping track of "proprietary stats"? If anything, he's doing what anybody else does and just keeping good records.

In short, I don't get the supposed divide between using "advanced" stats and judging hockey players/teams "the old fashioned way".

And really, how much different is this from the "eyeball test" when reviewing footage? Because he calls what he's keeping track of "proprietary stats"? If anything, he's doing what anybody else does and just keeping good records.

In short, I don't get the supposed divide between using "advanced" stats and judging hockey players/teams "the old fashioned way".
- BulliesPhan87

Isn't that all stats are?

An "advanced" stat is just one that isn't a part of the usual stat line.

I think people imagine complicated algorithms that try to summarize a player's total value in one single number... it's just an expanded box-score people.

28 pages before the game even started, wow

did the Flyers make a trade or something?

28 pages before the game even started, wow

did the Flyers make a trade or something?
- Marc D

Four words:

Nicklas Grossmann. Advanced stats.

Isn't that all stats are?

An "advanced" stat is just one that goes beyond the usual stat line.

I think people imagine complicated algorithms that try to summarize a player's total value in one single number... it's just an expanded box-score people.
- Tomahawk

Exactly, there's no magic bullet stat, and most aren't claiming there is. There are some that do, sure, but that's no reason to throw the baby out with the bath water.

As long as they're accurately and consistently tracked, I don't see any reason why more statistical analysis isn't embraced the same as official stats. Similarly, I don't see what the big deal is just because some people quantify and name what they discover in video review.