His stock has fallen since last year. I agree with you, but I'm not sure he brings back the type of player Pens fans will be expecting.
- PhillySportsGuy

I agree, but they could get a guy like Ray Whitney, M. Cammalleri or Brad Boyes (all UFAs to be) for him.

Considering hes ALREADY a solid 2nd pairing, two-way defense on most teams, I'd say he has a ton of potential.
- PhillySportsGuy

I don't think anyone's gonna argue that. But potential doesn't mean squat if you don't realize it. If the package didn't involve Giroux, Couturier, or Simmonds, I'd do it. If it was, say, Read, 2014 1st and B Schenn, then yes.

I'd do Read for him straight-up, maybe Read + 2nd.
- jmatchett383

I think the Pens would do that. I don't know if I would. I don't like Despres that much.

I don't think anyone's gonna argue that. But potential doesn't mean squat if you don't realize it.
- jmatchett383

We'll see, but he's only 19 and playing really well. I like the way he sees the game. It's not like he's getting by on being a physically dominate player.

Edit: So in terms of trade value you have Simmonds>B. Schenn?

I think the Pens would do that. I don't know if I would. I don't like Despres that much.
- PhillySportsGuy

While the other team might, I don't think the Pens would, if you know what I mean.

So which of these trades would you guys do

Read and Simmonds for Maata
Read, Laughton and 1st for Letang
Coburn and 2014 1st for Dougie Hamilton
- PhillySportsGuy

None of them, particularly not the first. Simmonds would kill us for the next 10 years.

I really think you're exaggerating a bit on his poor defensive play. He had a terrible month of January. He was -10 for the month. He's -11 for the season.
- PhillySportsGuy

Plus/Minus is not a really good indicator of defensive play. I'm looking at a wide array of stats over several months as well as looking at video to make as informed an opinion as I can.

It's not as simple as me looking at stats and saying he's bad. I've been watching the games all along and saying it pretty much all year.

We'll see, but he's only 19 and playing really well. I like the way he sees the game. It's not like he's getting by on being a physically dominate player.
- PhillySportsGuy

Absolutely. But again, moving Simmonds and seeing him become a 35-goal scorer on Crosby's wing would be terrible.

I agree, but they could get a guy like Ray Whitney, M. Cammalleri or Brad Boyes (all UFAs to be) for him.
- bradleyc4

Yea, but I don't know if those guys really fill their needs. They need two-way forward (Read) and a power forward.

Considering hes ALREADY a solid 2nd pairing, two-way defense on most teams, I'd say he has a ton of potential.
- PhillySportsGuy

Yes, but if I'm giving up two wingers with 20+ goal ability and the special teams prowess that both Read(one of the NHL's best on the PK) and Simmonds(a highly effective PP scorer) bring, it's not enough for me.

Plus/Minus is not a really good indicator of defensive play. I'm looking at a wide array of stats over several months as well as looking at video to make as informed an opinion as I can.

It's not as simple as me looking at stats and saying he's bad. I've been watching the games all along and saying it pretty much all year.
- Jsaquella

He's having a bad year overall for sure. But hell, most NHL players, even very good ones, have bad years. Heck, people in Pittsburgh were calling for the swift removal of Letang for the first 2 months of the season. Based on his history, I'd expect him to regain his former level next year if not for the stretch run of this year.

Absolutely. But again, moving Simmonds and seeing him become a 35-goal scorer on Crosby's wing would be terrible.
- jmatchett383

He could get 50 in a season if he played 82 games with Crosby.

10 would come in the five games against us.

Not to take anything away from seattle, but man they looked almost two steps faster than denver all over the field... Just makes me wonder if any "supplements" were put in their gatorade.
- JoeRussomanno

Denver was down, what? 12 points before they got a first down? Things snowballed badly for them and the Seatlle defense really fed off that. It was utter domination.

Plus/Minus is not a really good indicator of defensive play. I'm looking at a wide array of stats over several months as well as looking at video to make as informed an opinion as I can.

It's not as simple as me looking at stats and saying he's bad. I've been watching the games all along and saying it pretty much all year.
- Jsaquella

Well my eyes tell me that he's been solid all season except for a horrific month of January. That's what the +/- says as well.

I know he's not great at leaving the zone, but, with the exception of one month, he's good without the puck. I just don't see how playing Mez, Gus and Streit will help this team defensively. They aren't very good at winning puck battles and their positioning is lacking.

He could get 50 in a season if he played 82 games with Crosby.

10 would come in the five games against us.
- Feanor

Exactly. The negative would be like JvR, but worse (way worse). The return, however, would likely be much better though.

Yes, but if I'm giving up two wingers with 20+ goal ability and the special teams prowess that both Read(one of the NHL's best on the PK) and Simmonds(a highly effective PP scorer) bring, it's not enough for me.
- Jsaquella

You'd be getting back Sutter to though. Very good two-way player with 20 goal potential. Also, a very good penalty killer. Pens have #1 PK.

Well my eyes tell me that he's been solid all season except for a horrific month of January. That's what the +/- says as well.

I know he's not great at leaving the zone, but, with the exception of one month, he's good without the puck. I just don't see how playing Mez, Gus and Streit will help this team defensively. They aren't very good at winning puck battles and their positioning is lacking.
- PhillySportsGuy

Mez especially. However, given the choice, I'd have him play 4W over Rosehill. Dude could get in on the forecheck and still has a nice shot. And I know he's played up before, but I don't think Streit would be good doing the same.

Exactly. The negative would be like JvR, but worse (way worse). The return, however, would likely be much better though.
- jmatchett383

The return is already better.

You'd be getting back Sutter to though. Very good two-way player with 20 goal potential. Also, a very good penalty killer. Pens have #1 PK.
- PhillySportsGuy

I'm not sold on Sutter. At all.

Mez especially. However, given the choice, I'd have him play 4W over Rosehill. Dude could get in on the forecheck and still has a nice shot. And I know he's played up before, but I don't think Streit would be good doing the same.
- jmatchett383

Not sure if Mez would fit well on a crash and bang line. He doesn't really like to hit anyone anymore.

He's having a bad year overall for sure. But hell, most NHL players, even very good ones, have bad years. Heck, people in Pittsburgh were calling for the swift removal of Letang for the first 2 months of the season. Based on his history, I'd expect him to regain his former level next year if not for the stretch run of this year.
- jmatchett383

Sure, but IMO his former level isn't exactly an uncommon quality in the NHL. He's a 5th/6th physical defenseman making a fairly high salary for that type of player.

Letang having a bad year gets mitigated by him being a near elite offensive defenseman. Byfuglien gets mitigated because of the years of elite production he's had as a defenseman.

I'm also not calling for the banishment of Grossmann. I'm saying he's having a bad season and pointing out his limitations. I get that he's a likeable player, and honestly, I like the guy myself.

You'd be getting back Sutter to though. Very good two-way player with 20 goal potential. Also, a very good penalty killer. Pens have #1 PK.
- PhillySportsGuy

He is, but I have Sean Couturier and Adam Hall who fill the role of PK center. I'd rather keep natural wingers rather than force more guys out of their natural positions

I'm not sold on Sutter. At all.
- jmatchett383

I think he'd be solid on a line with Couturier.

None of these guys are available. I would rather talk about guys that are. Has Bill given his opinion on what the Flyers would have to give up to get Daley?

Sure, but IMO his former level isn't exactly an uncommon quality in the NHL. He's a 5th/6th physical defenseman making a fairly high salary for that type of player.

Letang having a bad year gets mitigated by him being a near elite offensive defenseman. Byfuglien gets mitigated because of the years of elite production he's had as a defenseman.

I'm also not calling for the banishment of Grossmann. I'm saying he's having a bad season and pointing out his limitations. I get that he's a likeable player, and honestly, I like the guy myself.
- Jsaquella

You've made that so clear