Well we rip on Giroux all the time for being lazy....
- Giroux_Is_God

Hey, now! Don't put that "we" on me! I'm one of those, at the height of "Fraude Giroux," who knew that young man was the last thing on this team to be worried about!

My view on Mez is simple- unless you're gonna get something like a 3rd or higher, trade him.

Other than that, just keep him as a cheap mobile 6/7 because is a 4th+ REALLY worth it?
- Giroux_Is_God

I agree. He could potentially help the Flyers down the stretch and in the playoffs. We've seen before that you can never have enough defenseman.

Look at Winnipeg, doing us a solid tonight! Way to go, Paul Maurice!

Hey, now! Don't put that "we" on me! I'm one of those, at the height of "Fraude Giroux," who knew that young man was the last thing on this team to be worried about!


- AllInForFlyers

I don't need to tell you that I was in your boat too!

My view on it is basically what JR's is. We shouldn't condone Ovechkin's BLATANT lack of hustle on what seems like 70% of his shifts (no, a hit doesn't equal "hustle") because he scores 45 times a year. But hey that's the way it is. And that's the way it'll always be for him. Understandable? Yes. Unfair? Yes.

Didn't watch these games because they were too late for this old man and also my disgust for how the team was playing. From Bill's write up it seems them put together some games here with all out effort. This is what drives me crazy about this team and really the Flyers teams for the past 6-7 years, is their inability to play a full 60 minutes on a regular basis. They seem to play well for a few games and that slowly falls apart to where they only play 10-20 minutes. That lasts a few games they get the poop kicked out of them and then they say that game was a wake up call. Repeat the cycle and call it a season.

How can professional athletes let this happen. Not saying this team is a cup team, but if they played a full 60 minutes almost ever game they would easily be a playoff team. At that anything can happen. I'm just sick of the excuses, just go out there and play like you can.

To lazy to check the stats, but it sure seems this team plays better when Rinaldo is in the lineup. Not saying it's him, but that is what it seems to me. Is that perception or reality?
- LJF

Rinaldo can be a spark at times, or he can hurt the team with his lack of discipline. But what you bring up also bother me a great deal. Because we've seen time and again, when the Flyers skate and move their feet, and play a good team game. They can be competitive with any team in the League. But there are games where it just doesn't happen. And you can understand it happening occasionally, due to scheduling, back to backs, long road trips, 3 games in 4 nights, etc. But it happens far too often when there's no reason for it. I posted earlier today about the next step this team has to take to evolve. And it's really about accountability. Aside from the obvious personnel areas that they have to upgrade. They need to create a culture of accountability if they want to evolve into a top team.

Neurvith with a semi-roadkill save

I don't need to tell you that I was in your boat too!

My view on it is basically what JR's is. We shouldn't condone Ovechkin's BLATANT lack of hustle on what seems like 70% of his shifts (no, a hit doesn't equal "hustle") because he scores 45 times a year. But hey that's the way it is. And that's the way it'll always be for him. Understandable? Yes. Unfair? Yes.
- Giroux_Is_God

I don't watch enough of Washington to know how much Ovechkin doesn't backcheck, but there are various other teams I watch with guys who are offensive players who don't backcheck much, if at all -- Phil Kessel, some games, needs a freaking map to find the neutral zone, let alone his own zone. Patrick Kane doesn't always bust it back -- and when I say "doesn't always," I mean, "not nearly as much as people want to pretend."

I don't know if Ovechkin is more egregious, because, again, I don't watch him enough. But I do know that he's far from the only offensive winger in this sport who isn't winning a Selke Trophy in their lifetime.

Welp no roadkill for that one. Clean shot from the point whizzes by his ear

Go Isles!

Neurvith with a semi-roadkill save
- Giroux_Is_God

He's maddening to watch. He'll make saves that are highlight reel quality and then get beat 5 hole two seconds later.

Rinaldo can be a spark at times, or he can hurt the team with his lack of discipline. But what you bring up also bother me a great deal. Because we've seen time and again, when the Flyers skate and move their feet, and play a good team game. They can be competitive with any team in the League. But there are games where it just doesn't happen. And you can understand it happening occasionally, due to scheduling, back to backs, long road trips, 3 games in 4 nights, etc. But it happens far too often when there's no reason for it. I posted earlier today about the next step this team has to take to evolve. And it's really about accountability. Aside from the obvious personnel areas that they have to upgrade. They need to create a culture of accountability if they want to evolve into a top team.
- MJL

Even the golden child's need a benching or a scratching from time to time.

I don't watch enough of Washington to know how much Ovechkin doesn't backcheck, but there are various other teams I watch with guys who are offensive players who don't backcheck much, if at all -- Phil Kessel, some games, needs a freaking map to find the neutral zone, let alone his own zone. Patrick Kane doesn't always bust it back -- and when I say "doesn't always," I mean, "not nearly as much as people want to pretend."

I don't know if Ovechkin is more egregious, because, again, I don't watch him enough. But I do know that he's far from the only offensive winger in this sport who isn't winning a Selke Trophy in their lifetime.
- AllInForFlyers

Definitely true. But I also think that a player like Ovechkin can influence teammates. Good or bad. And maybe if he got better in other elements of the game, Washington might be a better team, and get better results in the playoffs. Reminds me of Steve Yzerman who was a fantastic offensive player in his early years. But it wasn't until he devoted himself to both sides of the puck, that Detroit achieved more success.

Even the golden child's need a benching or a scratching from time to time.
- Just5

In my opinion that's not how you create accountability. The results of that are only temporary, and can also be negative.

I don't watch enough of Washington to know how much Ovechkin doesn't backcheck, but there are various other teams I watch with guys who are offensive players who don't backcheck much, if at all -- Phil Kessel, some games, needs a freaking map to find the neutral zone, let alone his own zone. Patrick Kane doesn't always bust it back -- and when I say "doesn't always," I mean, "not nearly as much as people want to pretend."

I don't know if Ovechkin is more egregious, because, again, I don't watch him enough. But I do know that he's far from the only offensive winger in this sport who isn't winning a Selke Trophy in their lifetime.
- AllInForFlyers

Indeed.

I guess what my point really entails is the fact that I've played this game, and suffice it to say that it is NOT HARD to skate hard and backcheck.

You don't need to be good at it, but for God's sake....why give up on a shift? They're 2 minutes long. No reason to do it.

It annoys me. Why can't Kane hustle for his whole shift? Why can't Kessel just skate hard through the neutral zone? It doesn't annoy me enough to piss me off unless it's so blatantly obvious but players still get a pass for it (like Ovechkin) but it just....I don't know it just grinds my gears that some NHLers, more often than not, just coast out there and are so laughably offense oriented. No reason for it.

He's maddening to watch. He'll make saves that are highlight reel quality and then get beat 5 hole two seconds later.
- Jsaquella

Yup 2 minutes later he lets one go over his shoulder

Rinaldo can be a spark at times, or he can hurt the team with his lack of discipline. But what you bring up also bother me a great deal. Because we've seen time and again, when the Flyers skate and move their feet, and play a good team game. They can be competitive with any team in the League. But there are games where it just doesn't happen. And you can understand it happening occasionally, due to scheduling, back to backs, long road trips, 3 games in 4 nights, etc. But it happens far too often when there's no reason for it. I posted earlier today about the next step this team has to take to evolve. And it's really about accountability. Aside from the obvious personnel areas that they have to upgrade. They need to create a culture of accountability if they want to evolve into a top team.
- MJL

Yes to all of this.

Yup 2 minutes later he let's one go over his shoulder
- Giroux_Is_God

I was watching the Detroit game, and it was the same thing. He'd make an awesome, ten bell stop, then a floater eludes his glove. Lot of skill, seems to have issues with his focus.

That said, the way that the Caps have juggled goalies it's understandable.

shorty penalty shot for grabner

cmonnnnnnn finish this time!

EDIT: Ugh

Indeed.

I guess what my point really entails is the fact that I've played this game, and suffice it to say that it is NOT HARD to skate hard and backcheck.

You don't need to be good at it, but for God's sake....why give up on a shift? They're 2 minutes long. No reason to do it.

It annoys me. Why can't Kane hustle for his whole shift? Why can't Kessel just skate hard through the neutral zone? It doesn't annoy me enough to piss me off unless it's so blatantly obvious but players still get a pass for it (like Ovechkin) but it just....I don't know it just grinds my gears that some NHLers, more often than not, just coast out there and are so laughably offense oriented. No reason for it.
- Giroux_Is_God

I agree -- it shouldn't be difficult, but at the same time...some guys think offense more naturally.

Yeah, the effort should always be there. And there's no excuse for cherry-picking. But at the same time, I've always felt that you pay guys like Mario Lemieux to score goals and you pay guys like Adam Hall to backcheck.

It doesn't mean that Mario Lemieux should never backcheck. But I've always found it to be a bit absurd that the guys who can't score get a pass for not being able to do that because they backcheck hard, but the guys who can score don't get a pass when they...don't backcheck.

I agree -- it shouldn't be difficult, but at the same time...some guys think offense more naturally.

Yeah, the effort should always be there. And there's no excuse for cherry-picking. But at the same time, I've always felt that you pay guys like Mario Lemieux to score goals and you pay guys like Adam Hall to backcheck.

It doesn't mean that Mario Lemieux should never backcheck. But I've always found it to be a bit absurd that the guys who can't score get a pass for not being able to do that because they backcheck hard, but the guys who can score don't get a pass when they...don't backcheck.
- AllInForFlyers

The guys who can't score, can't do it because they lack the ability to do it. That's why they get a pass. There isn't a player who ever played the game that lacks the ability to hustle on the backcheck.

I agree -- it shouldn't be difficult, but at the same time...some guys think offense more naturally.

Yeah, the effort should always be there. And there's no excuse for cherry-picking. But at the same time, I've always felt that you pay guys like Mario Lemieux to score goals and you pay guys like Adam Hall to backcheck.

It doesn't mean that Mario Lemieux should never backcheck. But I've always found it to be a bit absurd that the guys who can't score get a pass for not being able to do that because they backcheck hard, but the guys who can score don't get a pass when they...don't backcheck.
- AllInForFlyers

It's bothersome when it's a really obvious bad effort on a back check.

The on Giroux had vs Anaheim bugged me. On a powerplay, close game with a chance to get it close and he just stopped skating hard.

It's hard to stay mad, because he does so much offensively...but you see him play a 200 foot game against Detroit and Los Angeles and wonder what happens on plays like the one against Anaheim.

shorty penalty shot for grabner

cmonnnnnnn finish this time!

EDIT: Ugh
- Giroux_Is_God

If Grabner had even slightly better hands he'd score 45 goals a year.

It's bothersome when it's a really obvious bad effort on a back check.

The on Giroux had vs Anaheim bugged me. On a powerplay, close game with a chance to get it close and he just stopped skating hard.

It's hard to stay mad, because he does so much offensively...but you see him play a 200 foot game against Detroit and Los Angeles and wonder what happens on plays like the one against Anaheim.
- Jsaquella

That's where accountability comes in. Giroux can't lead the team and tell all the player that were all going to play a 200 foot game and give as much on the defensive side of the puck, as we are when we have the puck. If he's going to coast on the backcheck and give up on a play.

I agree -- it shouldn't be difficult, but at the same time...some guys think offense more naturally.

Yeah, the effort should always be there. And there's no excuse for cherry-picking. But at the same time, I've always felt that you pay guys like Mario Lemieux to score goals and you pay guys like Adam Hall to backcheck.

It doesn't mean that Mario Lemieux should never backcheck. But I've always found it to be a bit absurd that the guys who can't score get a pass for not being able to do that because they backcheck hard, but the guys who can score don't get a pass when they...don't backcheck.
- AllInForFlyers

I think the answer here lies in the following, Sir:

To win, you don't get Adam Hall to score like Lemieux. You get Lemieux to backcheck like Adam Hall.

I think we chastise the scorers for not skating hard and backchecking because like I said earlier- backchecking is just a matter of effort, will, determination, etc whereas having that scoring touch is definitely something you're born with and can't teach by any means.

We don't expect the grinders to score. That's unfair to them because they have less skill. But I think it's certainly fair of us to expect scorers to hustle around the ice because you don't need skill to do that. You just need will and determination.

Okposo stoned.

My fantasy team just cried

The guys who can't score, can't do it because they lack the ability to do it. That's why they get a pass. There isn't a player who ever played the game that lacks the ability to hustle on the backcheck.
- MJL

There's such a thing as time and place -- if Mario Lemieux doesn't backcheck on a rush when it's 4-2 Pittsburgh, and he's scored one of the goals and set up two more, that's not even remotely the same as if Lemieux doesn't backcheck when it's 2-0 Flyers.

No player is perfect, and coaches lose their best players just as fast, or faster, when they try to turn them all into checkers and shot-blockers as they do when they let them play the game to their strengths.

Some players need to backcheck simply to stay in the league. Some players bring more to the table, and sometimes, it's disingenuous for a player like Jeremy Roenick -- who I like and respect as a player -- to talk about effort and defense, when at times, his concentration and dedication to fitness and defense were also questionable, at times.

Again: No player is perfect.