Great piece by Jay Greenberg on Keith Allen

http://flyers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=703690&navid=DL|PHI|home

I think the answer here lies in the following, Sir:

To win, you don't get Adam Hall to score like Lemieux. You get Lemieux to backcheck like Adam Hall.


- Giroux_Is_God

Great line!

Great line!

- MJL

Can't take credit for it. I read it on here, actually, toward the beginning of the season.

I don't know who said it but it's certainly stuck with me.

Can't take credit for it. I read it on here, actually, toward the beginning of the season.

I don't know who said it but it's certainly stuck with me.
- Giroux_Is_God

Believe it or not, I actually have said that on here, as one of the lingering fallacies that dogs certain players and not others.

There's such a thing as time and place -- if Mario Lemieux doesn't backcheck on a rush when it's 4-2 Pittsburgh, and he's scored one of the goals and set up two more, that's not even remotely the same as if Lemieux doesn't backcheck when it's 2-0 Flyers.

No player is perfect, and coaches lose their best players just as fast, or faster, when they try to turn them all into checkers and shot-blockers as they do when they let them play the game to their strengths.

Some players need to backcheck simply to stay in the league. Some players bring more to the table, and sometimes, it's disingenuous for a player like Jeremy Roenick -- who I like and respect as a player -- to talk about effort and defense, when at times, his concentration and dedication to fitness and defense were also questionable, at times.

Again: No player is perfect.
- AllInForFlyers

No one is saying they are. But on the good teams, such as Boston, LA, Anaheim and Chicago. The all play both ways and play both ways hard. And when a player doesn't do it, they are held accountable and told by the leadership that it's unacceptable.
I'm sure that there were times when Roenick dogged it, so point taken.

Believe it or not, I actually have said that on here, as one of the lingering fallacies that dogs certain players and not others.

- AllInForFlyers

So it comes full circle then!!

That's actually hilarious

It's bothersome when it's a really obvious bad effort on a back check.

The on Giroux had vs Anaheim bugged me. On a powerplay, close game with a chance to get it close and he just stopped skating hard.

It's hard to stay mad, because he does so much offensively...but you see him play a 200 foot game against Detroit and Los Angeles and wonder what happens on plays like the one against Anaheim.
- Jsaquella

It can be frustrating, no doubt -- when the puck winds up in the back of the net, every single person who is watching is either waiting for the replay or looking at the Jumbotron to see who the hell's fault it was.


But at the same time, I'm more forgiving of a missed backcheck from time to time of a guy who's scoring 30 goals or getting 70-plus points...because it's going to happen. It's just going to happen, except for the rare guys like Toews or Bergeron, and that's what makes them so valuable.

Please, not another frickin Caps OT point

So it comes full circle then!!

That's actually hilarious
- Giroux_Is_God

Well, I'm full of wisdom...among other things.

Isles did their job

Yayyyyy thanks NYI

Isles did their job
- Jsaquella

YEAAHHHHH

Got no help last night, got a couple of favorable ones tonight

It can be frustrating, no doubt -- when the puck winds up in the back of the net, every single person who is watching is either waiting for the replay or looking at the Jumbotron to see who the hell's fault it was.


But at the same time, I'm more forgiving of a missed backcheck from time to time of a guy who's scoring 30 goals or getting 70-plus points...because it's going to happen. It's just going to happen, except for the rare guys like Toews or Bergeron, and that's what makes them so valuable.
- AllInForFlyers

It doesn't have to happen though. Lack of effort isn't something you want from your Captain. He should work, and work, and work until he can't work anymore. Coasting back on a backcheck and than stop and stare at the play for 10 seconds is a joke.

It is what it is though. Love Giroux.

It doesn't have to happen though. Lack of effort isn't something you want from your Captain. He should work, and work, and work until he can't work anymore. Coasting back on a backcheck and than stop and stare at the play for 10 seconds is a joke.

It is what it is though. Love Giroux.
- Flyersgod

Again, for the record: I do agree that the effort should always be there.

It can be frustrating, no doubt -- when the puck winds up in the back of the net, every single person who is watching is either waiting for the replay or looking at the Jumbotron to see who the hell's fault it was.


But at the same time, I'm more forgiving of a missed backcheck from time to time of a guy who's scoring 30 goals or getting 70-plus points...because it's going to happen. It's just going to happen, except for the rare guys like Toews or Bergeron, and that's what makes them so valuable.
- AllInForFlyers

It also happens less-or at least less obviously-to Bergeron and Toews because they have a better crop of skaters around them.

Look at Chicago's defense. Of the guys who play the most minutes, there's not a single guy who is a subpar skater. Keith can absolutely fly, Seabrook and Leddy move well, Hjalmarsson is an exceptional skater and Johnny Oduya is above average.

The sixth guy has generally been Rozsival who has always been a decently mobile guy or Brookbank, who is used in a very limited role-when he plays, he averages almost 2 minutes less TOI than Rozsival does.

YEAAHHHHH

Got no help last night, got a couple of favorable ones tonight
- AllInForFlyers

The whole lousy division started playing better at the same time...except the Caps

It can be frustrating, no doubt -- when the puck winds up in the back of the net, every single person who is watching is either waiting for the replay or looking at the Jumbotron to see who the hell's fault it was.


But at the same time, I'm more forgiving of a missed backcheck from time to time of a guy who's scoring 30 goals or getting 70-plus points...because it's going to happen. It's just going to happen, except for the rare guys like Toews or Bergeron, and that's what makes them so valuable.
- AllInForFlyers

I think it should be the opposite. I'm less forgiving of a better player not giving effort or playing stupidly. Claude Giroux is the leader of this team. As he goes the team goes. Other veterans are also leaders. What do you think would happen with this team if Claude Giroux became a much better defensive player. If other players such as Scott Hartnell did the same? And then demanded the same of their teammates? How about the penalty issue that plagues the team? What if veterans such as Hartnell, Coburn, Grossmann, drastically cut down on the penalties they take? And demand the same from their teammates? How would that impact the team?
Couturier is one of the better defensive forwards in the League, but he's young and he's not going to lead the team and demand that everyone play better defensively. He doesn't have that pull in the room yet. Adam Hall isn't going to lead and demand that everyone play better defensively. It's the veteran top players that have to do that. To create that culture. But first they have to do it themselves. You can apply this to every area of the game. That's how accountability is formed. That's a huge factor in teams getting to the top.

It also happens less-or at least less obviously-to Bergeron and Toews because they have a better crop of skaters around them.

Look at Chicago's defense. Of the guys who play the most minutes, there's not a single guy who is a subpar skater. Keith can absolutely fly, Seabrook and Leddy move well, Hjalmarsson is an exceptional skater and Johnny Oduya is above average.

The sixth guy has generally been Rozsival who has always been a decently mobile guy or Brookbank, who is used in a very limited role-when he plays, he averages almost 2 minutes less TOI than Rozsival does.
- Jsaquella

Exactly -- those guys, as well as Brandon Saad, cover up for Patrick Kane so much, it's funny.

And that's not me ripping Kane. I'm just saying that you never hear "Patrick Kane doesn't backcheck" for exactly the reasons you just described.

Granted, Ovechkin could/should be more accountable. But it irritates me to no end when he gets singled out like that.

I think it should be the opposite. I'm less forgiving of a better player not giving effort or playing stupidly. Claude Giroux is the leader of this team. As he goes the team goes. Other veterans are also leaders. What do you think would happen with this team if Claude Giroux became a much better defensive player. If other players such as Scott Hartnell did the same? And then demanded the same of their teammates? How about the penalty issue that plagues the team? What if veterans such as Hartnell, Coburn, Grossmann, drastically cut down on the penalties they take? And demand the same from their teammates? How would that impact the team?
Couturier is one of the better defensive forwards in the League, but he's young and he's not going to lead the team and demand that everyone play better defensively. He doesn't have that pull in the room yet. Adam Hall isn't going to lead and demand that everyone play better defensively. It's the veteran top players that have to do that. To create that culture. But first they have to do it themselves. You can apply this to every area of the game. That's how accountability is formed. That's a huge factor in teams getting to the top.
- MJL

I'm not disagreeing with your point. Truly, I'm not. I'm merely saying that not every player is going to focus on that, every single shift -- as much as we'd like to -- and that sometimes, that puck's gonna wind up in the back of your net.

Again: I'm really not disagreeing with the concept of what you're saying -- who would? I'm just saying, in reality, it's just not going to happen for all players.

The whole lousy division started playing better at the same time...except the Caps
- Jsaquella

Absolutely -- we definitely needed some of those "games in hand" the other teams had to start going away.

Tonight's been helpful, with St. Louis getting the job done, too

EDIT: GAH! WTF ST. LOUIS?!?!?! I TURNED AWAY FOR FIVE MINUTES WHEN YOU WERE UP BY TWO AND NOW YOU'RE DOWN BY ONE

I'm not disagreeing with your point. Truly, I'm not. I'm merely saying that not every player is going to focus on that, every single shift -- as much as we'd like to -- and that sometimes, that puck's gonna wind up in the back of your net.

Again: I'm really not disagreeing with the concept of what you're saying -- who would? I'm just saying, in reality, it's just not going to happen for all players.
- AllInForFlyers

I think the history of the game shows that to be correct. But it's a difference maker in elevating a team to a higher level. And it's a step that the Flyers need to take, to get to where the top teams in the League are.

Exactly -- those guys, as well as Brandon Saad, cover up for Patrick Kane so much, it's funny.

And that's not me ripping Kane. I'm just saying that you never hear "Patrick Kane doesn't backcheck" for exactly the reasons you just described.

Granted, Ovechkin could/should be more accountable. But it irritates me to no end when he gets singled out like that.
- AllInForFlyers

Agreed. He's hardly the first superstar sniper that failed to back check effectively.

Sadly, I do feel it's a bit of bias, as well, from some segments of the media. That Russian factor crap exists.

Here's two guys stat lines:

Player A
GP: 612 G: 248 A:198 PTS: 446 GPG: 0.41 PPG: 0.73

Player B
GP: 555 G: 223 A:257 PTS: 480 GPG: 0.40 PPG :0.86

Which guy would you want?

Agreed. He's hardly the first superstar sniper that failed to back check effectively.

Sadly, I do feel it's a bit of bias, as well, from some segments of the media. That Russian factor crap exists.

Here's two guys stat lines:

Player A
GP: 612 G: 248 A:198 PTS: 446 GPG: 0.41 PPG: 0.73

Player B
GP: 555 G: 223 A:257 PTS: 480 GPG: 0.40 PPG :0.86

Which guy would you want?
- Jsaquella

Ha! Player A seems...familiar...to me.

Absolutely -- we definitely needed some of those "games in hand" the other teams had to start going away.

Tonight's been helpful, with St. Louis getting the job done, too

EDIT: GAH! WTF ST. LOUIS?!?!?! I TURNED AWAY FOR FIVE MINUTES WHEN YOU WERE UP BY TWO AND NOW YOU'RE DOWN BY ONE
- AllInForFlyers

It's gonna be wild when they trade for Ryan Miller on Friday

It's gonna be wild when they trade for Ryan Miller on Friday
- Jsaquella

They'd better -- they have to be insane to think they can make it out of the West with what they have. Nothing against Halak and Elliott, but they've had their chances and that team's only going to listen to Hitch for a little while longer