All these Corsi jokes are stale. Can't you guys mix it up and pick on Fenwick for a while?

Very possible, and in this case I disagree with the coach.
- Jsaquella

As do I, Grossmann should have sat for a game or 2 when he was really struggling. It would have allowed him to heal up a bit and I think Hal Gill can fill his role just fine for a couple of games.

All these Corsi jokes are stale. Can't you guys mix it up and pick on Fenwick for a while?
- BulliesPhan87

No. Facts are facts.

As do I, Grossmann should have sat for a game or 2 when he was really struggling. It would have allowed him to heal up a bit and I think Hal Gill can fill his role just fine for a couple of games.
- BiggE

That's my contention as well.

It's not as if I said to send Grossmann to the AHL, or be benched for 25 games. Or trade him for a bag of peanuts.

That's my contention as well.

It's not as if I said to send Grossmann to the AHL, or be benched for 25 games. Or trade him for a bag of peanuts.
- Jsaquella

Well if you did would they be honey roasted ?

Adding Gagner could be the first step. Maybe they trade for Gagner & then flip him or Brayden Schenn+ for a guy like Yandle.
- Jsaquella

gagner is a decent player, but doesnt exactly invoke fear for me should you guys acquire him. especially if you send anything decent back the other way

Well if you did would they be honey roasted ?
- ob18

Nah, hotter...

- 77rams

Since when has this board become a vehicle for political ads? Referee!!

Since when has this board become a vehicle for political ads? Referee!!
- 2731color

Clearly you are a Rush Holt supporter.

Clearly you are a Rush Holt supporter.
- FlyersFirst

That's the problem with this stuff. Don't appreciate your opinion on who you think I support. The good thing about this board is its relative civility and that it sticks to hockey. I'd prefer to see no political talk. There are a multitude of other places for those discussions.

The problem in the Grossmann discussion, for me, isn't that he shouldn't be on the team or in the NHL, it's that his position shouldn't be an assured one when other guys who play poorly are being shuttled in and out.

Sure LA won with Scuderi & Mitchell. But they also had Drew Doughty & Slava Voynov. Nobody should be arguing that you don't need a a mix, because you do. What they are saying, that gets pushed aside when stats come into play, is that one 4-5-6 defenseman who blocks shots & hits should be as subject to being benched as an offensive minded youngster or a veteran who scores from set piece offense when they play like crap.

Even the most ardent Grossmann defenders admit he had a bad January. Guys like Gustafsson, Meszaros, and Schenn would have a bad game or two & get benched, while Grossmann was allowed to work his way through an entire month long slump. That's as much my issue as anything.

On top of that, I don't think Grossmann has been that good all season. That's open to debate, of course, but it's no less valid than those who defend Grossmann with no evidence besides their opinion. I'm not going to participate in a Richard swinging contest over this, because its futile and annoying to deal with some on this board.

So, have at it.
- Jsaquella

Coaches favoring players and treating players differently, is nothing new to the NHL or any major pro sport. Grossmann doesn't receive the same treatment, simply because he has earned it, as a veteran and a warrior in this League. And for how he is the consummate team player and always gives everything he has out there. And he has the trust of the Coaching staff to be able to work thourhg bad periods of play. While Luke Schenn showed up in the beginning of the Season, not really ready to play. He's a lot younger and hasn't earned the same benefit of the doubt from the Coach. Gustafsson is not established as an NHL full time defenseman yet. And Meszaros is clearly not in the long term plans of the team. Grossmann should not be subject to the same standards as those other players. And the Coaches also take into consideration what benching a player is going to accomplish. With Grossmann, not much, other then weakening the team. He knows when he needs to pick it up and play better. He doesn't need a message sent. I think it's pretty obvious why Grossmann hasn't been benched at any point this Season.

Good assessment. I think Berube allowed Grossmann to work through his struggles for 2 reasons: First, much like Timonen, he's a warrior who gives his all every shift, and second, I think the coaching staff feels he's vital for the PK.

Mez and Gus are not vital for either the PP or PK and I believe Schenn was benched as a message to young player to work harder.
- BiggE

It's pretty clear to me!

That's the problem with this stuff. Don't appreciate your opinion on who you think I support. The good thing about this board is its relative civility and that it sticks to hockey. I'd prefer to see no political talk. There are a multitude of other places for those discussions.
- 2731color

Dude....relax he was just joking. The CORSI thing is a joke about the advanced stat people have been talking about for what seems like 3 years but is only about 2 days. The pic doesn't have anything to do with political viewpoints. As long as what'shisface isn't here, we probably won't be seeing any political drivel

Unless of course, you were also joking. Then I just look like a huge jackass

Not really. It's on both. I have always stated that usage and partners played with are a factor. I've never said my issue was solely on Grossmann. That's a supposition that others have put on my comments.

My issue with Grossmann is that, IMO, he hasn't played especially well for the bulk of the season. My issue with the coach and GM is, that they continue to use him in a manner that forces him to play past his limits.

My issue with the discussion is that it cherry picked part of my argument and made that the focus of the discussion. It became a witch hunt for Grossmann and a denunciation of stats, which were only used to show a trend when Grossmann was on the ice. Stats were part of the argument, but quickly because the crux of it-which was never my intent.
- Jsaquella

The stats weren't being used to show a trend on the ice, they were attempted to be used to show that Grossmann hasn't played well this year. Which in my opinion they don't and can't tell you that. If the possession stats were used for what in my opinion they're for, showing what happens on the ice with players and situations. Then there wouldn't have been an issue. I feel that they simply show that Grossmann is not a good puck mover and is not a driver of possession. No more, no less. But we already knew that. If Grossmann is going to be rated on a skillset that he simply doesn't have. Might as well say he hasn't played well because he hasn't scored enough goals. Same thing. He's not a puck mover and driver of possesion. And he's not a goal scorer. He's a physical stay at home shot blocking defenseman.
A reality of Corsi is that sometimes a player with poor Corsi numbers is really good in his role. And sometimes a player with good Corsi numbers isn't. Some drive the bus, and some are passengers.

The stats weren't being used to show a trend on the ice, they were attempted to be used to show that Grossmann hasn't played well this year. Which in my opinion they don't and can't tell you that. If the possession stats were used for what in my opinion they're for, showing what happens on the ice with players and situations. Then there wouldn't have been an issue. I feel that they simply show that Grossmann is not a good puck mover and is not a driver of possession. No more, no less. But we already knew that. If Grossmann is going to be rated on a skillset that he simply doesn't have. Might as well say he hasn't played well because he hasn't scored enough goals. Same thing. He's not a puck mover and driver of possesion. And he's not a goal scorer. He's a physical stay at home shot blocking defenseman.
A reality of Corsi is that sometimes a player with poor Corsi numbers is really good in his role. And sometimes a player with good Corsi numbers isn't. Some drive the bus, and some are passengers.
- MJL

perfect analysis. he is what he is and serves a specific purpose

Just read ASF article on the Flyers website. He get's it. Well done ASF!

Ok I'm gonna do it. I'm taking the bait.

IN MY OPINION:

Advanced stats in the NHL are a very fickle animal. In fact, all stats are. Hockey is the teamiest team sport there is, and each and every single little stat can be skewed, inflated, deflated, or anything in between because of this, or other lurking variable factors.

Kunitz's goal totals- he plays next to Crosby
Goalies' GAA is often heavily influenced by team D
Ovechkin's goal totals- he just plants himself for the one timer on the powerplay for a third of them
Shea Weber's goal totals- of course he'll score more than most Dmen...he probably takes 80% more shots than anyone but Karlsson
+/- horrible statistic we all know has many flaws

See what I mean? There are SO MANY factors to take into account, and most are intangible. This whole Gustafson thing is a good example- maybe he leads the team in +/- because he plays against poorer opposing lines. Maybe he has NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING because it's just luck, at that point?

My point more or less, is that hockey is NOT baseball. Baseball's advanced stats are a powerful tool, in my opinion. What happens in baseball? The pitcher pitches the ball, the batter hits the ball somewhere, and fielders field it. You look at things like BABAP (batting avg of balls in play)- that's a stat, if high, that tells us the batter may regress because he's hitting balls where people ain't. i.e. he's getting a bit lucky. Or WHIP, which isn't even really that advanced- that truly shows how dominant a pitcher is- a low WHIP = this pitcher is not giving up walks or hits. This pitcher is dominating.

See what I mean? You can't try to scour over advanced stats in hockey because it's not a simple game. There's no "player A passes, player B shoots, player B scores". It's so much more than that. It's fluent with endless possibilities. Powerplays, failed clears, poor position, offsides, turnovers, chips in the ice....

Can you use advanced stats? Sure. But I think even saying they're supplementary is too much. There are so many lurking variables that can't be covered....so many things to take into account that WILL influence a statistic and it's not possible nor worthwhile IMO to put any more than initial, "springboard" stock into adv stats.

Just watch the players. Watch them play the game.

That's the problem with this stuff. Don't appreciate your opinion on who you think I support. The good thing about this board is its relative civility and that it sticks to hockey. I'd prefer to see no political talk. There are a multitude of other places for those discussions.
- 2731color

I was joking. Did you see the Corsi sign?
I agree this board is about hockey (or humor where appropriate).

Dude....relax he was just joking. The CORSI thing is a joke about the advanced stat people have been talking about for what seems like 3 years but is only about 2 days. The pic doesn't have anything to do with political viewpoints. As long as what'shisface isn't here, we probably won't be seeing any political drivel

Unless of course, you were also joking. Then I just look like a huge jackass
- Giroux_Is_God

I just saw this! Agreed on both points

Dude....relax he was just joking. The CORSI thing is a joke about the advanced stat people have been talking about for what seems like 3 years but is only about 2 days. The pic doesn't have anything to do with political viewpoints. As long as what'shisface isn't here, we probably won't be seeing any political drivel

Unless of course, you were also joking. Then I just look like a huge jackass
- Giroux_Is_God

Thanks. It was a joke at first. I've been following the CORSI discussion for years, er... ah... I mean days. It became serious when I was told I was a "supporter" of a particular candidate. Anyway, that's what I get for trying to be funny.

Ok I'm gonna do it. I'm taking the bait.

IN MY OPINION:

Advanced stats in the NHL are a very fickle animal. In fact, all stats are. Hockey is the teamiest team sport there is, and each and every single little stat can be skewed, inflated, deflated, or anything in between because of this, or other lurking variable factors.

Kunitz's goal totals- he plays next to Crosby
Goalies' GAA is often heavily influenced by team D
Ovechkin's goal totals- he just plants himself for the one timer on the powerplay for a third of them
Shea Weber's goal totals- of course he'll score more than most Dmen...he probably takes 80% more shots than anyone but Karlsson
+/- horrible statistic we all know has many flaws

See what I mean? There are SO MANY factors to take into account, and most are intangible. This whole Gustafson thing is a good example- maybe he leads the team in +/- because he plays against poorer opposing lines. Maybe he has NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING because it's just luck, at that point?

My point more or less, is that hockey is NOT baseball. Baseball's advanced stats are a powerful tool, in my opinion. What happens in baseball? The pitcher pitches the ball, the batter hits the ball somewhere, and fielders field it. You look at things like BABAP (batting avg of balls in play)- that's a stat, if high, that tells us the batter may regress because he's hitting balls where people ain't. i.e. he's getting a bit lucky. Or WHIP, which isn't even really that advanced- that truly shows how dominant a pitcher is- a low WHIP = this pitcher is not giving up walks or hits. This pitcher is dominating.

See what I mean? You can't try to scour over advanced stats in hockey because it's not a simple game. There's no "player A passes, player B shoots, player B scores". It's so much more than that. It's fluent with endless possibilities. Powerplays, failed clears, poor position, offsides, turnovers, chips in the ice....

Can you use advanced stats? Sure. But I think even saying they're supplementary is too much. There are so many lurking variables that can't be covered....so many things to take into account that WILL influence a statistic and it's not possible nor worthwhile IMO to put any more than initial, "springboard" stock into adv stats.

Just watch the players. Watch them play the game.
- Giroux_Is_God

Bottom line no matter who likes them or doesn't teams do use them down to the junior level.

They are not perfect by any means and how teams use them we may never know and if so how it differs from each team.

But to ignore it would be foolish of anybody. Each of the last 5 cups teams have admitted using them to some level, that is just too hard to ignore or dismiss.

Thanks. It was a joke at first. I've been following the CORSI discussion for years, er... ah... I mean days. It became serious when I was told I was a "supporter" of a particular candidate. Anyway, that's what I get for trying to be funny.
- 2731color

Nah dude I think he was just joking with that comment too!

It's all good

After 1

Rimouski - 1
Charlottetown - 2

No points for Morin

Ok I'm gonna do it. I'm taking the bait.

IN MY OPINION:

Advanced stats in the NHL are a very fickle animal. In fact, all stats are. Hockey is the teamiest team sport there is, and each and every single little stat can be skewed, inflated, deflated, or anything in between because of this, or other lurking variable factors.

Kunitz's goal totals- he plays next to Crosby
Goalies' GAA is often heavily influenced by team D
Ovechkin's goal totals- he just plants himself for the one timer on the powerplay for a third of them
Shea Weber's goal totals- of course he'll score more than most Dmen...he probably takes 80% more shots than anyone but Karlsson
+/- horrible statistic we all know has many flaws

See what I mean? There are SO MANY factors to take into account, and most are intangible. This whole Gustafson thing is a good example- maybe he leads the team in +/- because he plays against poorer opposing lines. Maybe he has NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING because it's just luck, at that point?

My point more or less, is that hockey is NOT baseball. Baseball's advanced stats are a powerful tool, in my opinion. What happens in baseball? The pitcher pitches the ball, the batter hits the ball somewhere, and fielders field it. You look at things like BABAP (batting avg of balls in play)- that's a stat, if high, that tells us the batter may regress because he's hitting balls where people ain't. i.e. he's getting a bit lucky. Or WHIP, which isn't even really that advanced- that truly shows how dominant a pitcher is- a low WHIP = this pitcher is not giving up walks or hits. This pitcher is dominating.

See what I mean? You can't try to scour over advanced stats in hockey because it's not a simple game. There's no "player A passes, player B shoots, player B scores". It's so much more than that. It's fluent with endless possibilities. Powerplays, failed clears, poor position, offsides, turnovers, chips in the ice....

Can you use advanced stats? Sure. But I think even saying they're supplementary is too much. There are so many lurking variables that can't be covered....so many things to take into account that WILL influence a statistic and it's not possible nor worthwhile IMO to put any more than initial, "springboard" stock into adv stats.

Just watch the players. Watch them play the game.
- Giroux_Is_God

I also agree with this.
I also agree that Giroux is God.