Those numbers are not capable of pointing out or singling out anyone player as to how they played.
Hockey Coaches review game film and scoring chances to see who is actually responsible.
One of the first pioneers of using analytics, was Roger Neilsen. But the key was that he used them in conjunction with video. He developed his own +/- system based not on raw numbers that can't isolate one player. But on rather who was actually responsible, and where the breakdown was. Not blindly looking at numbers and drawing false conclusions.
A week or so ago, I reviewed all of the highlights of goals scored against the Flyers when Grossmann was on the ice. Far more often then not, Grossmann had his coverage, and the breakdown was elsewhere.
- MJL

....ya did?

After 2

Rimouski - 3
Charlottetown - 3

No points for Morin
- ob18

I really hope they are super patient with this kid.

You are right, nothing advanced about it. But where the flaw is, is just what we saw. That because Grossmann's GAON/60 is the worst on the team, well that means that he hasn't played well or hasn't been effective. Not true.
- MJL

Agree to disagree and move on. You won't agree with many of those who feel otherwise & this has been beaten to a pulp.

You've made your point you don't agree with others.

Those numbers are not capable of pointing out or singling out anyone player as to how they played.
Hockey Coaches review game film and scoring chances to see who is actually responsible.
One of the first pioneers of using analytics, was Roger Neilsen. But the key was that he used them in conjunction with video. He developed his own +/- system based not on raw numbers that can't isolate one player. But on rather who was actually responsible, and where the breakdown was. Not blindly looking at numbers and drawing false conclusions.
A week or so ago, I reviewed all of the highlights of goals scored against the Flyers when Grossmann was on the ice. Far more often then not, Grossmann had his coverage, and the breakdown was elsewhere.
- MJL

So why does coverage breakdown MORE OFTEN with Grossman on the ice than any other D?

You are missing the point, because you want to defend Grossman. As I said, in previous years Grossman has had his limitations, but the other team didn't score when he was on the ice.

Let's assume Mez isn't as good in his own zone than Grossman. I would ABSOLUTELY agree with that statement. At the same time, let's assume Mez gets the puck out of the zone a bit more, so he spends less time in the D zone, and, thus, there is less of an opportunity to blow coverage for everyone else.

I really hope they are super patient with this kid.
- mochoson

We all or most are hopeful this is the path they take with not just him but with many of their prospects.

....ya did?
- Giroux_Is_God

I did. Now granted there is a human element involved there also. One person may see it one way, versus another. So I purposely leaned towards blame if I felt there was any doubt. Grossmann has been hung out to dry by his teammates when he's been out on the ice at a high rate. Not to say that he hasn't made mistakes, because he has. And also keep in mind that goals scored is an event that doesn't happen a lot in a game. There's lots of plays where a mistake could be made where the puck didn't end up in the back of the net, obviously.

I understand (but don't agree with) reticence with regard to "advanced" metrics like that, but GA/GF is a blunt, and empirically specific stat. There is nothing advanced about it.

If your losing on the scoreboard, then your losing. Period. We don't need to get into discussions of where shots came from, etc.
- gollum

Agreed. I was using a less blunt tool to show trends that had every player being worse, in terms of possession with Grossmann than without-because it was an across the board issue.

But the rubber really meets the road in GA/GF...have fun, because the horse will get beaten to death by another poster

We all or most are hopeful this is the path they take with not just him but with many of their prospects.
- ob18

Him. Ghostbear. Haag.

I don't want to see any of them in the NHL all next year. Probably another 2 if not 3 for Haag and Morin.

Him. Ghostbear. Haag.

I don't want to see any of them in the NHL all next year. Probably another 2 if not 3 for Haag and Morin.
- mochoson

Ghost probably won't need to stay for his senior year, might be best for his game to further develop by signing after his junior season & going to the AHL

Hagg I'd like to see them bring him over and either get him to play in the CHL (OHL, QMJHL, or WHL whatever worked for them) or even the AHL if they didn't want to go that route.

Morin has gotten better as his year has gone on but he's also lost his cool and been suspended 3 times. I think he should come to camp but in the end go back to juniors.

Agreed. I was using a less blunt tool to show trends that had every player being worse, in terms of possession with Grossmann than without-because it was an across the board issue.

But the rubber really meets the road in GA/GF
- Jsaquella

Well, yes. Grossman sucks at getting the puck out of the zone, and that has always been true (which is why he throws so many hits, and blocks so many shots) -- as an aside, these critiques are unfortunately applicable to Schenn, too.

So, the team spends more time playing D, and less time on offense... and that drags everyone down a bit. But, again, if he was posting a low 2s GAON like he has previously, then everything is fine, because he is steady and consistent.

Ghost probably won't need to stay for his senior year, might be best for his game to further develop by signing after his junior season & going to the AHL

Hagg I'd like to see them bring him over and either get him to play in the CHL (OHL, QMJHL, or WHL whatever worked for them) or even the AHL if they didn't want to go that route.

Morin has gotten better as his year has gone on but he's also lost his cool and been suspended 3 times. I think he should come to camp but in the end go back to juniors.
- ob18

I don't want any of them rushed, but it sure seems Gostisbehere isn't going to benefit from more time in the NCAA level. He's been near dominant there.

Both Hagg and Morin can still grow their games at their present levels, so I'm OK with them staying, or Hagg making a "lateral" move to the CHL

I don't want any of them rushed, but it sure seems Gostisbehere isn't going to benefit from more time in the NCAA level. He's been near dominant there.

Both Hagg and Morin can still grow their games at their present levels, so I'm OK with them staying, or Hagg making a "lateral" move to the CHL
- Jsaquella

I wouldn't be opposed to him staying in Sweden, I suggested the move to adjust to the smaller ice & North American style of play. That was my motive for the suggestion.

So why does coverage breakdown MORE OFTEN with Grossman on the ice than any other D?

You are missing the point, because you want to defend Grossman. As I said, in previous years Grossman has had his limitations, but the other team didn't score when he was on the ice.

Let's assume Mez isn't as good in his own zone than Grossman. I would ABSOLUTELY agree with that statement. At the same time, let's assume Mez gets the puck out of the zone a bit more, so he spends less time in the D zone, and, thus, there is less of an opportunity to blow coverage for everyone else.
- gollum

Why does it? Let's discuss that and it will emphasize my point. It could have to do with the situations a player plays in. For instance, Grossmann starts his shifts more in the defensive zone then any other defenseman. Let's look at who he plays with. He plays with Streit a lot of the time. Watch the goal highlight videos, and see how many times Streit lost a puck battle or blew a coverage leading to a goal. Happened quite frequently in the first part of the Season. And there's also no question that Grossmann's actual play contributes to his numbers. He's made mistakes also. And no doubt that Grossmann's lack of puck moving ability also contributes to more time defending and leading to potential breakdowns. It's all part of it. It's a team game. Unless anyone wants to tell me that Grossmann is responsible for every goal that is scored against, when he's on the ice. Then those numbers need to be looked at in the right context. It's a team game and that's why Coaches look at actual film, to rate players, and don't blindly look at numbers.

As far as previous years, how can past years with different players, different defense pairings, and countless other different variables, be used as base of comparison to say that Grossmann hasn't been effective this year? It can't.

Well, yes. Grossman sucks at getting the puck out of the zone, and that has always been true (which is why he throws so many hits, and blocks so many shots) -- as an aside, these critiques are unfortunately applicable to Schenn, too.

So, the team spends more time playing D, and less time on offense... and that drags everyone down a bit. But, again, if he was posting a low 2s GAON like he has previously, then everything is fine, because he is steady and consistent.
- gollum

Agreed, although looking at the CF% numbers in past years, there wasn't an across the board drop when Grossmann was on the ice. Several guys from the short season in 2013 were markedly better with Grossmann on the ice in CF%.

But, again, I was using it as an easy way to illuminate my point, not basing my entire argument on the stat.

Thanks. It was a joke at first. I've been following the CORSI discussion for years, er... ah... I mean days. It became serious when I was told I was a "supporter" of a particular candidate. Anyway, that's what I get for trying to be funny.
- 2731color

the supporter comment was a joke referring to the other name listed on that sign

EVERYBODY CALM DOWN

Now THAT'S cool!

Was my favorite, Sir Guy de Guy, with them?
- 77rams

I liked Fussy and Gussy best. I think they show up here sometimes. Back then hockey expansion was only in the talking stages and a few years removed from our beloved Flyers.

the supporter comment was a joke referring to the other name listed on that sign

EVERYBODY CALM DOWN
- -davies-

I'm calm but slow, sorry.

I don't want any of them rushed, but it sure seems Gostisbehere isn't going to benefit from more time in the NCAA level. He's been near dominant there.

Both Hagg and Morin can still grow their games at their present levels, so I'm OK with them staying, or Hagg making a "lateral" move to the CHL
- Jsaquella

I feel like it's a given the Ghost gets a promotion to the AHL, unless of course he says no (is he a senior?? I don't even know)

I agree that he really has nothing left to prove playing against collegiate talent

That poor horse is getting beaten into dust

Well, yes. Grossman sucks at getting the puck out of the zone, and that has always been true (which is why he throws so many hits, and blocks so many shots) -- as an aside, these critiques are unfortunately applicable to Schenn, too.

So, the team spends more time playing D, and less time on offense... and that drags everyone down a bit. But, again, if he was posting a low 2s GAON like he has previously, then everything is fine, because he is steady and consistent.
- gollum

Zone exits and getting the puck out of the zone is also a team game. When the Flyers forwards are coming back deep, supporting the defense, keeping the gap tight, and playing a solid team game. Then defenseman like Grossmann can make the simple play, and help alleviate pressure.
But if not, and a defenseman like Grossmann is subject to heavy forecheck pressure, and is outnumbered on the puck. He's not going to use his quickness to buy some space and time, and thread an outlet pass to a forward to get the puck out of the zone. He doesn't have that ability, and he needs help and support because of his limitations as a player. His game is more seal the player off, and wait for help. Or chips, rims and reverses. But again he needs help there because that often results in putting the puck into a 50/50 puck battle.

I feel like it's a given the Ghost gets a promotion to the AHL, unless of course he says no (is he a senior?? I don't even know)

I agree that he really has nothing left to prove playing against collegiate talent
- Giroux_Is_God

Well, he'd have to sign a contract...as soon as he does, he's no longer NCAA eligible, so it'd either be ECHL, AHL or NHL

That poor horse is getting beaten into dust
- Jsaquella

Grossmann, and analytics is a topic of today's blog. And is a relevant topic to discuss based on that.

when my kid was 3, she went through a phase where she always needed to feel like she was right, too.

That poor horse is getting beaten into dust
- Jsaquella

Nothing left of the poor horse

Nothing left of the poor horse
- ob18

That's usually when McDonald's comes along to use what's left for Big Macs