That's usually when McDonald's comes along to use what's left for Big Macs
- Jsaquella

I thought that was White Castle

I thought that was White Castle
- ob18

White Castle uses dogs, not horses

White Castle uses dogs, not horses
- Jsaquella

Now you tell me

Why does it? Let's discuss that and it will emphasize my point. It could have to do with the situations a player plays in. For instance, next to Coburn, Grossmann starts his shifts more in the defensive zone then any other defenseman. Let's look at who he plays with. He plays with Streit a lot of the time. Watch the goal highlight videos, and see how many times Streit lost a puck battle or blew a coverage leading to a goal. Happened quite frequently in the first part of the Season. And there's also no question that Grossmann's actual play contributes to his numbers. He's made mistakes also. And no doubt that Grossmann's lack of puck moving ability also contributes to more time defending and leading to potential breakdowns. It's all part of it. It's a team game. Unless anyone wants to tell me that Grossmann is responsible for every goal that is scored against, when he's on the ice. Then those numbers need to be looked at in the right context. It's a team game and that's why Coaches look at actual film, to rate players, and don't blindly look at numbers.

As far as previous years, how can past years with different players, different defense pairings, and countless other different variables, be used as base of comparison to say that Grossmann hasn't been effective this year? It can't.
- MJL

...because he probably has sunburn this year, and in previous years he didn't. You bring up variables, which is interesting because the GAON is about Grossman being a COMMON variable. Nevertheless, this post is mostly subjective analysis trying to sweep away raw data from the scoreboard. It's a team game, and to this point in the season the Flyers, as a team, are losing on the scoreboard more often than any other D. You want to make excuses for that, when perhaps we should be looking for ways to improve?

You bring up Streit, who is awful defensively, but he has skills that offset that.

Now you tell me
- ob18

You should have watched all the highlights. You would have seen that it was never the horse

You should have watched all the highlights. You would have seen that it was never the horse
- Jsaquella

Well I ate at White Castle once & never did again.

Zone exits and getting the puck out of the zone is also a team game. When the Flyers forwards are coming back deep, supporting the defense, keeping the gap tight, and playing a solid team game. Then defenseman like Grossmann can make the simple play, and help alleviate pressure.
But if not, and a defenseman like Grossmann is subject to heavy forecheck pressure, and is outnumbered on the puck. He's not going to use his quickness to buy some space and time, and thread an outlet pass to a forward to get the puck out of the zone. He doesn't have that ability, and he needs help and support because of his limitations as a player. His game is more seal the player off, and wait for help. Or chips, rims and reverses. But again he needs help there because that often results in putting the puck into a 50/50 puck battle.
- MJL

So, he's pretty limited. Waiting for help is not getting the puck out, and that means someone else needs to pick up the slack.

This post, ironically, is describing the fundamental problem, and WHY the TEAM has struggled with Grossman out there. Perhaps it turns around, but it hasn't worked thus far this year.

That's usually when McDonald's comes along to use what's left for Big Macs
- Jsaquella

Damn! That almost made me spit out my Big Mac ... almost.

...because he probably has sunburn this year, and in previous years he didn't. You bring up variables, which is interesting because the GAON is about Grossman being a COMMON variable. Nevertheless, this post is mostly subjective analysis trying to sweep away raw data from the scoreboard. It's a team game, and to this point in the season the Flyers, as a team, are losing on the scoreboard more often than any other D. You want to make excuses for that, when perhaps we should be looking for ways to improve?

You bring up Streit, who is awful defensively, but he has skills that offset that.
- gollum

Because when you can't argue what the data tells you, you attack the data itself with a strawman. It's all he does. He demands verification from everyone else, then tosses opinions back.

It's the same exact comments he tossed at me last week, then he went on an orgy of shredding numbers. He's even got a twitter account cutting & pasting the same arguments at me there...that or somebody is cutting & pasting his posts here...in which case, it'd be funny as hell.

Well I ate at White Castle once & never did again.
- ob18

I've never eaten at a White Castle before midnight or sober

...because he probably has sunburn this year, and in previous years he didn't. You bring up variables, which is interesting because the GAON is about Grossman being a COMMON variable. Nevertheless, this post is mostly subjective analysis trying to sweep away raw data from the scoreboard. It's a team game, and to this point in the season the Flyers, as a team, are losing on the scoreboard more often than any other D. You want to make excuses for that, when perhaps we should be looking for ways to improve?

You bring up Streit, who is awful defensively, but he has skills that offset that.
- gollum

Not excuses, but factors. Because just like any other analytic, or advanced stats. That as you accurately stated is not that advanced. Can only tell you what happened. They cannot tell you why it happened. That requires interpretation. And if you want to accurately, as much as possible, find out what actually happened. Don't look at numbers, but watch the game.

Secondly. Grossmann also has skills that offset his limitations. If he didn't, he wouldn't have lasted this long in the NHL. And players in his mold wouldn't continue to be used by NHL teams.

And although I disagree about making excuses, we should be looking for ways to improve.

Two ways to go about that. Change how players are used, or use different players. And in an earlier post I stated that there is no doubt that if the Flyers had a defenseman that not only could handle the defensive zone and physical play, as well as add more mobility and puck skills, in place of a player like Grossmann. Then the Flyers would be a much better team.

Final

Rimouski - 5
Charlottetown - 3

No points for Morin

Final

Rimouski - 5
Charlottetown - 3

No points for Morin
- ob18

Trade him now

Great.....more Grossmann advanced stats debate

[img][/img]

damn I cant post pic. Its Pvt Pyle sitting on the toilet with his rifle in his mouth, scene from Full Metal Jacket

Trade him now
- Jsaquella

Hasn't scored but he's looked good.

So, he's pretty limited. Waiting for help is not getting the puck out, and that means someone else needs to pick up the slack.

This post, ironically, is describing the fundamental problem, and WHY the TEAM has struggled with Grossman out there. Perhaps it turns around, but it hasn't worked thus far this year.
- gollum

I don't want to read into this what's not there, but it seems to me that the thought given here is that the defenseman are only responsible for getting the puck out. That zone breakouts aren't a team game that requires a cohesive 5 man unit operating as a team on the ice?
Now with that being said, yes, the Flyers have a poor mix on defense, and they need better skill and more all around defenseman, to get better as a team. And Grossmann, and his lack of puck skills and puck moving ability, definitely contributes to that, and the weakness the Flyers have there.
But the reality is, that regardless of how well Grossmann plays, he is never going to be a good puck mover, or a driver of possession. He just does not have that ability.

I did. Now granted there is a human element involved there also. One person may see it one way, versus another. So I purposely leaned towards blame if I felt there was any doubt. Grossmann has been hung out to dry by his teammates when he's been out on the ice at a high rate. Not to say that he hasn't made mistakes, because he has. And also keep in mind that goals scored is a small part of the game. There's lots of plays where a mistake could be made where the puck didn't end up in the back of the net, obviously.
- MJL

I really, really don't have a dog in this fight, but I do enjoy the absurdity of it all at times, and I'm astonished and even amused at the amount of legs it has grown over the past several days.

But this statement did made me laugh.

Hasn't scored but he's looked good.
- ob18

I'm being facetious. I like the kid. Big, strong, good skater.

Hasn't scored but he's looked good.
- ob18

Any more free sticks given to the fans?

Any more free sticks given to the fans?
- 77rams

Nah, they won today

I really, really don't have a dog in this fight, but I do enjoy the absurdity of it all at times, and I'm astonished and even amused at the amount of legs it has grown over the past several days.

But this statement did made me laugh.
- 77rams

Yea, I can see why. I really poorly mis-worded that. What I was trying to convey is that goals scored in games as an event don't happen alot when compared to shots attempted, blocked, or shots on net. Which is one way that Corsi has improved upon conventional +/- by using a much larger sample size of data.

So, what we learned today:

Grossmann gets hung out to dry more than everyone else on the team....Corsi while horribly inefficient is better than +/-....and that any stat that disagrees with somebody's opinion is fatally flawed...oh, anyone making an argument with stats is not watching games, only using numbers in a vacuum

Kumbayah

1. It's interesting so many complain about the continuing grossman/advanced stat debate. If there were people interested in discussing something else, why isn't that happening? I think the team is playing too well lately, otherwise there' be plenty of things to complain about, I'd guess.

2. I actually think the whole thing is interesting. Eyeball vs stats vs advanced stats. All three are important, maybe not equally, but important if they are all available.

3. I'm pissed the flyers have to take a long break right when they were hitting their stride again.

4. Really can't say enough how happy I've been with the goaltending this year. Refreshing. Gives the team a chance almost every night.

5. Glad Giroux is back to form. Never had a doubt he'd come around.

6. Simmonds. Just Simmonds.

Not excuses, but factors. Because just like any other analytic, or advanced stats. That as you accurately stated is not that advanced. Can only tell you what happened. They cannot tell you why it happened. That requires interpretation. And if you want to accurately, as much as possible, find out what actually happened. Don't look at numbers, but watch the game.

Secondly. Grossmann also has skills that offset his limitations. If he didn't, he wouldn't have lasted this long in the NHL. And players in his mold wouldn't continue to be used by NHL teams.

And although I disagree about making excuses, we should be looking for ways to improve.

Two ways to go about that. Change how players are used, or use different players. And in an earlier post I stated that there is no doubt that if the Flyers had a defenseman that not only could handle the defensive zone and physical play, as well as add more mobility and puck skills, in place of a player like Grossmann. Then the Flyers would be a much better team.
- MJL

GAON/60 and GFON/60 are not interpretive stats... which makes me think you don't fully grasp stat analysis, but that's another matter. All they tell us is what Grossman is on the ice for. That's it. There's nothing to interpret other than goals were scored.

Right now, those stats STATE (as facts) that the Flyers are a weaker team with Grossman on the ice than any other D on the team. That is independent of whatever skills you may want to mention as a "yeah but..." response. You do not win hockey games if the other team is scoring more, and you are scoring less.

Because, here's the thing... you don't actually need to be particularly good offensively or defensively to win, you just need to outscored the opponent. Grossman has NEVER in his career contributed offensively whatsoever. In fact, he's a negative drag to his teammates offensively. He has, however, provided even and stable defensive play that didn't hurt the team because the other team didn't score much... that isn't true right now. Maybe it's because of the 17 other skaters on the team each night, which is the basics premise of your defense. Whatever it is, it isn't working right now. But if you can't fix Grossman's on ice scoring numbers, or he can't, then he's part of the problem and not the solution.

And I willy fully admit I don't understand why he's had such a problem this year compared to previous years, but it is what it is... and trotting him out there night after night as if nothing is amiss is sticking your head in the sand.

1. It's interesting so many complain about the continuing grossman/advanced stat debate. If there were people interested in discussing something else, why isn't that happening? I think the team is playing too well lately, otherwise there' be plenty of things to complain about, I'd guess.

2. I actually think the whole thing is interesting. Eyeball vs stats vs advanced stats. All three are important, maybe not equally, but important if they are all available.

3. I'm pissed the flyers have to take a long break right when they were hitting their stride again.

4. Really can't say enough how happy I've been with the goaltending this year. Refreshing. Gives the team a chance almost every night.

5. Glad Giroux is back to form. Never had a doubt he'd come around.

6. Simmonds. Just Simmonds.
- funmaster18

I hate the Olympics break...hate it