Bang on.

For example, I'm pretty sure that Serena Williams at her peak could beat many of the guys on tour. Likely not the top end ones, but enough to make it a relevant statistic...
- lumlums

And then you have the guys who ask why they can't go play in a women's league, if we're going to let women play in the NHL.

How (frank)ing stupid is that?

There are men's only leagues, and women only leagues... as far as I know, the NHL isn't either of those.

Bang on.

For example, I'm pretty sure that Serena Williams at her peak could beat many of the guys on tour. Likely not the top end ones, but enough to make it a relevant statistic...
- lumlums

Actually no.

http://observer.theguardi...m/story/0,,543962,00.html

There's also hard data that shows certain races are better at different things than others. And that's OK.

What's not ok is saying that because of the average, we cut out any possibility of individual achievements.

Sure, the average woman is smaller than the average man, with less muscle than the average man. But I've met women over six feet, and a friend of mine could pick me up clear off the ground when I was at my heaviest.

Athletes at the highest level are, by definition, above average.
- Feeling Glucky?

Ok, now let's imagine that woman of incredible talent has risen through the ranks and is gifted enough to play in the NHL, just think of some of the other obstacles that would need to be overcome:

A. Does she even want to play in the NHL?
B. Does the League, BOG and NHLPA agree?
C. What of legal issues and battles?
D. Are there rule changes?
E. Is the "Old Boys Club" going to let this fly?
F. Do Owners instruct their GMs and Coaches not to draft/sign females?
G. Do GMs make the move not to include women on their own?
H. Is there a roster spot available?
I. What kind of fallout would there be if a woman was waived or demoted to the AHL?... I couldn't even imagine that poop storm
J. After years of clearing red tape, is the woman originally in question still in the same shape and talent from when it all began?

Everything that I've listed above would all come into play and that is just off the top of my head.

You'll notice that I did not say "never," but when you start to include those factors on top of the gender and physical aspects, suddenly the odds of a woman/women playing in the NHL become VERY VERY VERY long... In most cases NEAR impossible.

Here's a question...

Why doesn't the NHL have female refs?

Bang on.

For example, I'm pretty sure that Serena Williams at her peak could beat many of the guys on tour. Likely not the top end ones, but enough to make it a relevant statistic...
- lumlums

Karsten Braasch vs. the Williams sisters

A fourth event dubbed a "Battle of the Sexes" took place during the 1998 Australian Open[20] between Karsten Braasch and the Williams sisters. Venus and Serena Williams, aged 17 and 16 respectively, had claimed that they could beat any male player ranked below 200, so Braasch, then ranked 203rd, challenged them both. The matches took place on court number 12 in Melbourne Park.[21] Braasch first took on Venus and beat her 6–2. He then played Serena and won 6–1.[22] Braasch said afterwards, "500 and above, no chance". He added that he had played like someone ranked 600th in order to keep the game "fun".[23]

I.C.

Also he sounds like a (frank)ing douche

Actually no.

http://observer.theguardi...m/story/0,,543962,00.html
- Atomic Wedgie

what does a one-set match prove?

Maybe they underestimated him? Maybe after playing one set, he was more warmed up for the next round?

Ok, now let's imagine that woman of incredible talent has risen through the ranks and is gifted enough to play in the NHL, just think of some of the other obstacles that would need to be overcome:

A. Does she even want to play in the NHL?
B. Does the League, BOG and NHLPA agree?
C. What of legal issues and battles?
D. Are there rule changes?
E. Is the "Old Boys Club" going to let this fly?
F. Do Owners instruct their GMs and Coaches not to draft/sign females?
G. Do GMs make the move not to include women on their own?
H. Is there a roster spot available?
I. What kind of fallout would there be if a woman was waived or demoted to the AHL?... I couldn't even imagine that poop storm
J. After years of clearing red tape, is the woman originally in question still in the same shape and talent from when it all began?

Everything that I've listed above would all come into play and that is just off the top of my head.

You'll notice that I did not say "never," but when you start to include those factors on top of the gender and physical aspects, suddenly the odds of a woman/women playing in the NHL become VERY VERY VERY long... In most cases NEAR impossible.
- As_I_See_It

You're 100% right.

That's the problem.

Karsten Braasch vs. the Williams sisters

A fourth event dubbed a "Battle of the Sexes" took place during the 1998 Australian Open
- AdamFrench[20] between Karsten Braasch and the Williams sisters. Venus and Serena Williams, aged 17 and 16 respectively, had claimed that they could beat any male player ranked below 200, so Braasch, then ranked 203rd, challenged them both. The matches took place on court number 12 in Melbourne Park.[21] Braasch first took on Venus and beat her 6–2. He then played Serena and won 6–1.[22] Braasch said afterwards, "500 and above, no chance". He added that he had played like someone ranked 600th in order to keep the game "fun".[23]

I.C.

Also he sounds like a (frank)ing douche

He does. And I don't think at 16&17, they were at the peak of their respective games, though I don't follow tennis, so I could be wrong.

what does a one-set match prove?

Maybe they underestimated him? Maybe after playing one set, he was more warmed up for the next round?
- Feeling Glucky?

I've cut and pasted this, so don't think it's mine:

When former number 1's Kim Clijsters and Lleyton Hewitt were dating, she said that she struggled to win a point of Hewitt, let alone a game. When female player Chris Evert-Lloyd was at her peak, she said her brother who played low level college tennis beat her (from her autobiography).

He does. And I don't think at 16&17, they were at the peak of their respective games, though I don't follow tennis, so I could be wrong.
- Feeling Glucky?

Well it begs the question, was this Braasch character at his peak?! Because he was at his douche peak...though he did mop the floor with them...and they did kind of bring it on themselves.

Well it begs the question, was this Braasch character at his peak?! Because he was at his douche peak...though he did mop the floor with them...and they did kind of bring it on themselves.
- AdamFrench

If you read the link I provided, his warmup consisted of drinking a couple shandys.

If you read the link I provided, his warmup consisted of drinking a couple shandys.
- Atomic Wedgie

I can't get over Female Gretzky flunking out in the Mestis after 10 games when reading this argument.


And I will agree with Glucker that a goalie is the likeliest candidate to make it if any...though that is often said about pitchers in baseball and kickers in football...and that hasn't happened either...

yes.. he has.

his words (or close to them) were women will NEVER play in the NHL because they will never be able to compete with men... so in other words.. because they're women
- Dozzer

I actually doubt you'll ever see a single one. But it's not completely impossible.

But yes, because they're women, they probably won't. Not because they're inferior, or anything like that, if that's what you think people are saying, but because their genetic dispositions make it unlikely. They're different, and in this case, the differences are not favourable for them to compete with men. It's that simple.

A 6 foot woman is in the top 1% of women. That's undersized for an NHL player. And that doesn't even begin to address the lower muscle mass.

I've cut and pasted this, so don't think it's mine:

When former number 1's Kim Clijsters and Lleyton Hewitt were dating, she said that she struggled to win a point of Hewitt, let alone a game. When female player Chris Evert-Lloyd was at her peak, she said her brother who played low level college tennis beat her (from her autobiography).
- Atomic Wedgie

Listen, I'm not saying women are equal to men when it comes to athletics.

My argument is it's asinine to say there will NEVER be a female goalie in the NHL.

It's the one position where a man's physical advantage isn't that big of an advantage.

Look at Ryan Miller(no, this isn't a shot at him)... he's 6'2, 168lbs. That's on the low end of what you'd expect a healthy woman of that height to be. That's an Adam French-type physique(yes, that is a shot at him).

Put him in a d-man or forward spot and he'd get obliterated... but he's one of the best in the net.

There's also hard data that shows certain races are better at different things than others. And that's OK.

What's not ok is saying that because of the average, we cut out any possibility of individual achievements.

Sure, the average woman is smaller than the average man, with less muscle than the average man. But I've met women over six feet, and a friend of mine could pick me up clear off the ground when I was at my heaviest.

Athletes at the highest level are, by definition, above average.
- Feeling Glucky?

Well, I guess I didn't really "cut it out" either. I put the odds on it as pretty damn low. It could happen, and I would hvae no issue with it. But I doubt it.

Bang on.

For example, I'm pretty sure that Serena Williams at her peak could beat many of the guys on tour. Likely not the top end ones, but enough to make it a relevant statistic...
- lumlums

Certain sports, like tennis, and golf, size and muscle plays a lesser role. Still a role, but not as much of one.

Karsten Braasch vs. the Williams sisters

A fourth event dubbed a "Battle of the Sexes" took place during the 1998 Australian Open
- AdamFrench[20] between Karsten Braasch and the Williams sisters. Venus and Serena Williams, aged 17 and 16 respectively, had claimed that they could beat any male player ranked below 200, so Braasch, then ranked 203rd, challenged them both. The matches took place on court number 12 in Melbourne Park.[21] Braasch first took on Venus and beat her 6–2. He then played Serena and won 6–1.[22] Braasch said afterwards, "500 and above, no chance". He added that he had played like someone ranked 600th in order to keep the game "fun".[23]

I.C.

Also he sounds like a (frank)ing douche

Both you and wedgie need to look at the part where I said "at their peak"...

Well, I guess I didn't really "cut it out" either. I put the odds on it as pretty damn low. It could happen, and I would hvae no issue with it. But I doubt it.
- prock

My problem really is with some of the idiots on the main board

Both you and wedgie need to look at the part where I said "at their peak"...
- lumlums

Ok, so at their peak they beat what? The 150th ranked dude? Come on. The 100th? Ok impressive, you're still 70 away from being relevant.

Ok, now let's imagine that woman of incredible talent has risen through the ranks and is gifted enough to play in the NHL, just think of some of the other obstacles that would need to be overcome:

A. Does she even want to play in the NHL?
B. Does the League, BOG and NHLPA agree?
C. What of legal issues and battles?
D. Are there rule changes?
E. Is the "Old Boys Club" going to let this fly?
F. Do Owners instruct their GMs and Coaches not to draft/sign females?
G. Do GMs make the move not to include women on their own?
H. Is there a roster spot available?
I. What kind of fallout would there be if a woman was waived or demoted to the AHL?... I couldn't even imagine that poop storm
J. After years of clearing red tape, is the woman originally in question still in the same shape and talent from when it all began?

Everything that I've listed above would all come into play and that is just off the top of my head.

You'll notice that I did not say "never," but when you start to include those factors on top of the gender and physical aspects, suddenly the odds of a woman/women playing in the NHL become VERY VERY VERY long... In most cases NEAR impossible.
- As_I_See_It

I'm sure some women would be interested. Wickenheiser played in Finland, right? I doubt there would be much of a legal battle, likely none at all. I actually think the BOG, owners, NHLPA would love it. When Manon Rheaume played that pre-season game for the Bolts, it was a marketing dream for them.

Listen, I'm not saying women are equal to men when it comes to athletics.

My argument is it's asinine to say there will NEVER be a female goalie in the NHL.

It's the one position where a man's physical advantage isn't that big of an advantage.

Look at Ryan Miller(no, this isn't a shot at him)... he's 6'2, 168lbs. That's on the low end of what you'd expect a healthy woman of that height to be. That's an Adam French-type physique(yes, that is a shot at him).

Put him in a d-man or forward spot and he'd get obliterated... but he's one of the best in the net.
- Feeling Glucky?

My stance as well.
People keep playing the genetics card like a strong, 6 ft 3 woman is statistically impossible. I don't understand it.

Listen, I'm not saying women are equal to men when it comes to athletics.

My argument is it's asinine to say there will NEVER be a female goalie in the NHL.

It's the one position where a man's physical advantage isn't that big of an advantage.

Look at Ryan Miller(no, this isn't a shot at him)... he's 6'2, 168lbs. That's on the low end of what you'd expect a healthy woman of that height to be. That's an Adam French-type physique(yes, that is a shot at him).

Put him in a d-man or forward spot and he'd get obliterated... but he's one of the best in the net.
- Feeling Glucky?

I'm not arguing about the physical aspect of being "destroyed" I'm arguing there simply hasn't been one good enough at the bloody sport.

See Mestis League, Female Gretzky cut in 10 games of scorelessness in her PRIME/PEAK (For Lums)

Ok, so at their peak they beat what? The 150th ranked dude? Come on. The 100th? Ok impressive, you're still 70 away from being relevant.
- AdamFrench

Not really... depends on what you consider relevant...

Ok, so at their peak they beat what? The 150th ranked dude? Come on. The 100th? Ok impressive, you're still 70 away from being relevant.
- AdamFrench

you're never going to be the best if you don't face the best, and practice against them.

The average high-end female athlete is worse than the average high-end male athlete. No doubt. When you segregate them from playing against eachother on a regular basis, that means the female athletes are denied the opportunity to develop the skills required to beat the male athletes.

I'm not arguing about the physical aspect of being "destroyed" I'm arguing there simply hasn't been one good enough at the bloody sport.

See Mestis League, Female Gretzky cut in 10 games of scorelessness in her PRIME/PEAK (For Lums)
- AdamFrench

And that's where my argument comes into play- they don't have the opportunity to be good enough.