Joni Pitkanen started his career looking like Paul Coffee...

Maatta's had a smooth start to his career, but there's no guarantee he can keep it up. He's spent 2/3 of his time at ES with either Malkin or Crosby. He's also been paired with either Niskanen (who's playing out of his freakin mind) or Letang, so it's not like he's doing all the heavy lifting out there.

When the degree of difficulty starts increasing, especially in terms of matchups, is when we'll really know how good he is, IMO.
- Tomahawk

all valid points. although id make the argument that niskanen has benefited from maatta nearly as much as vice versa. im confident that there is a top 4 long term defender in him though.

After 2

Drummondville - 0
Rimouski - 3

Morin with a goal & assist

His offense is here already.

It will be great to watch him in camp next year, and maybe for 9 games, but he should probably have another season in Junior just like Laughton.

all valid points. although id make the argument that niskanen has benefited from maatta nearly as much as vice versa. im confident that there is a top 4 long term defender in him though.
- stayinthefnnet

I'm kind of thinking the Lemieux/Jagr, Crosby/Malkin Pens are responsible for making a lot of average dmen look spectacular, much like Tippett's systems make average goalies into Vezina contenders.

Who's the last Pens' dman to change clubs and not see their production dive off a cliff? Zubov? There seems to be a lot more Whitney's, Goligoski's, Tarnstrom's, Gonchar's, and Jackman's.

Not saying guys like Letang, Martin, Niskanen and Maatta aren't good dmen... but without Geno and Sid... I dunno.

I'm kind of thinking the Lemieux/Jagr, Crosby/Malkin Pens are responsible for making a lot of average dmen look spectacular, much like Tippett's systems make average goalies into Vezina contenders.

Who's the last Pens' dman to change clubs and not see their production dive off a cliff? Zubov? There seems to be a lot more Whitney's, Goligoski's, Tarnstrom's, Gonchar's, and Jackman's.

Not saying guys like Letang, Martin, Niskanen and Maatta aren't good dmen... but without Geno and Sid... I dunno.
- Tomahawk

All players stand on their own merits. As an example, Martin was a very good D man playing in NJ, but has a better chance of utilizing his skill set more in a more open style of play. But that didn't change how good of a player that Martin is. Letang is a stud puck moving offensive defenseman who would be the same regardless of where he plays. Have to look at each situation individually. Such as with Whitney and the injuries he's had. Gonchar, as he got older, didn't put up the same offensive numbers after leaving the Pens, but was still a good player. Probably a combination of things and a normal progression towards the end of his career more then anything.
Goalies have to make saves. No system can turn an average Goalie into a Vezina level goalie. The talent and ability needs to be there.

Final

Drummondville - 0
Rimouski - 3

Morin with a goal & assist

All players stand on their own merits. As an example, Martin was a very good D man playing in NJ, but has a better chance of utilizing his skill set more in a more open style of play. But that didn't change how good of a player that Martin is. Letang is a stud puck moving offensive defenseman who would be the same regardless of where he plays. Have to look at each situation individually. Such as with Whitney and the injuries he's had. Gonchar, as he got older, didn't put up the same offensive numbers after leaving the Pens, but was still a good player. Probably a combination of things and a normal progression towards the end of his career more then anything.
Goalies have to make saves. No system can turn an average Goalie into a Vezina level goalie. The talent and ability needs to be there.
- MJL

Aren't you discounting the team aspect of the sport just a wee bit?

Aren't you discounting the team aspect of the sport just a wee bit?
- wolfhounds

I don't think I am, do you? A player either plays well, or doesn't play well.

All players stand on their own merits.
- MJL

I guess Cheechoo doesn't owe Jumbo Joe a beer after all then.

I guess Cheechoo doesn't owe Jumbo Joe a beer after all then.
- Tomahawk

Once Thorton put the puck on his stick, the shot still had to be made. Unless you're saying they were all empty net goals and gimme tap ins.

Once Thorton put the puck on his stick, the shot still had to be made. Unless you're saying they were all empty net goals and gimme tap ins.
- MJL

Am I saying Cheechoo's a bad player? No, before his knee problems, he was a pretty decent goal-scorer.

But without 19, he's not scoring 56, or even 30+ goals.

I'm kind of thinking the Lemieux/Jagr, Crosby/Malkin Pens are responsible for making a lot of average dmen look spectacular, much like Tippett's systems make average goalies into Vezina contenders.

Who's the last Pens' dman to change clubs and not see their production dive off a cliff? Zubov? There seems to be a lot more Whitney's, Goligoski's, Tarnstrom's, Gonchar's, and Jackman's.

Not saying guys like Letang, Martin, Niskanen and Maatta aren't good dmen... but without Geno and Sid... I dunno.
- Tomahawk

you have a point to an extent i feel. obviously getting flashy centers up front will help the back end guys pick up points via assists and whatnot. but id debate the influence it can have on their play in their own end and away from the puck. its just another variable you have to take into account when evaluating something. im certainly willing to attribute some of letangs assist totals over the years to playing with the pair of centers, but i would think its a stretch to suddenly dismiss his offensive prowess as simply playing with other players. you could in turn argue that malkin and crosby benefit from letang's aggressiveness as well.

i try to take each player and evaluate them based both on their own individual merits, as well as their contributions (as well as being the beneficiary) to and from the team aspect. yes, malkin may have set maatta up for a bomb in a random second period, but malkin doesnt make maatta have that bomb in his arsenal.

Am I saying Cheechoo's a bad player? No, before his knee problems, he was a pretty decent goal-scorer.

But without 19, he's not scoring 56, or even 30+ goals.
- Tomahawk

Most goal scorers need to have someone pass them the puck in good spots. And certainly Thornton was a big part of that. But Cheechoo still has to make the shots, and get himself in the right spots. If it's all Thornton, then why don't they just put Cheechoo back with him and he'll be a 50 goal guy again. There's a reason why it didn't last and he spent 4 year in the AHL and is now in the KHL.

To get to the point at hand, when I watch a player and decide whether he's a good player or not. Or whether he has played well or not. I look at that player individually on his own merits. Certainly playing with better players can elevate a player. We see that with player's like Kunitz and Dupuis. Good players in their own rights, but they're production is elevated playing with Crosby. But if they don't play well, it's not going to matter.

you have a point to an extent i feel. obviously getting flashy centers up front will help the back end guys pick up points via assists and whatnot. but id debate the influence it can have on their play in their own end and away from the puck. its just another variable you have to take into account when evaluating something. im certainly willing to attribute some of letangs assist totals over the years to playing with the pair of centers, but i would think its a stretch to suddenly dismiss his offensive prowess as simply playing with other players. you could in turn argue that malkin and crosby benefit from letang's aggressiveness as well.

i try to take each player and evaluate them based both on their own individual merits, as well as their contributions (as well as being the beneficiary) to and from the team aspect. yes, malkin may have set maatta up for a bomb in a random second period, but malkin doesnt make maatta have that bomb in his arsenal.
- stayinthefnnet

I've watched Maata several times and he's the real deal. His awareness on the ice is incredible for someone his age. I would give up significant assets to acquire him.

I'd say Niskanen is more a product of his surroundings. I think a team (hopefully not the Flyers) will be in trouble if they sign Niskanen and expect him to carry the load as the team's number 1 defenseman.

Letang benefits from a good team too to a certain extent. He seemed to play better when the team was dealing with injuries to Crosby or Malkin. I believe he'd put up numbers on any team.

I've watched Maata several times and he's the real deal. His awareness on the ice is incredible for someone his age. I would give up significant assets to acquire him.

I'd say Niskanen is more a product of his surroundings. I think a team (hopefully not the Flyers) will be in trouble if they sign Niskanen and expect him to carry the load as the team's number 1 defenseman.

Letang benefits from a good team too to a certain extent. He seemed to play better when the team was dealing with injuries to Crosby or Malkin. I believe he'd put up numbers on any team.
- PhillySportsGuy

The talent and skill level is evident with all 3 players.

Most goal scorers need to have someone pass them the puck in good spots. And certainly Thornton was a big part of that. But Cheechoo still has to make the shots, and get himself in the right spots. If it's all Thornton, then why don't they just put Cheechoo back with him and he'll be a 50 goal guy again. There's a reason why it didn't last and he spent 4 year in the AHL and is now in the KHL.
- MJL

Its never all of one thing and none of another. Cheechoo definitely benefitted from playing with Thornton. He benefitted a lot as Thornton is, arguably, the best passer of his generation.

Cheechoo was a good goal scorer. He would have scored goals, but he wouldn't have sniffed 50 or even 40 goals without Thornton.

Its never all of one thing and none of another. Cheechoo definitely benefitted from playing with Thornton. He benefitted a lot as Thornton is, arguably, the best passer of his generation.

Cheechoo was a good goal scorer. He would have scored goals, but he wouldn't have sniffed 50 or even 40 goals without Thornton.
- PhillySportsGuy

We'll never know. How would Cheechoo have done playing with another top playmaker at the time? Most pure goal scorers play with a good set up guy. It's not as if Thornton made a scrub into a 50 goal player.

I've watched Maata several times and he's the real deal. His awareness on the ice is incredible for someone his age. I would give up significant assets to acquire him.

I'd say Niskanen is more a product of his surroundings. I think a team (hopefully not the Flyers) will be in trouble if they sign Niskanen and expect him to carry the load as the team's number 1 defenseman.

Letang benefits from a good team too to a certain extent. He seemed to play better when the team was dealing with injuries to Crosby or Malkin. I believe he'd put up numbers on any team.
- PhillySportsGuy

yeah. my infatuation with maatta right now goes beyond numbers and assist total. like coots, his awareness and feel for things at his age is ridiculous. niskanen is a decent player, but i wouldnt see him pushing 50 points on a team with lesser firepower.

letang has the physical offensive goods to put up tons of points on his own wherever he plays. id rather he actually reined it in some. hes much more effective overall when he learns to pick his spots

We'll never know. How would Cheechoo have done playing with another top playmaker at the time? Most pure goal scorers play with a good set up guy. It's not as if Thornton made a scrub into a 50 goal player.
- MJL

yeah. it is hard to draw the line sometimes between who exactly is benefiting from who. sometimes things just work in a symbiotic way.

although im not doubting the notion that some players are at least a tad more fortunate in the exchange.

Gotta say i just love to laugh at the canadian fans that thought once again canada would run away with this.



Looking forward to the Czech vs. Slovak match up

I really hope the Ghost turns pro after this year. I'm not sure what another year at the college ranks would do for him, other then allow him to get physically stronger.

Looking forward to see if he can handle the defensive zone at the pro level.

I really hope the Ghost turns pro after this year. I'm not sure what another year at the college ranks would do for him, other then allow him to get physically stronger.

Looking forward to see if he can handle the defensive zone at the pro level.
- ravishingone

Agreed, he's been dominating that level. Hopefully he's with the Phantoms next year.

Honestly i think he's gonna be a match up type guy in the NHL. He's gonna be loved by some and loathed by others. I don't think he's ever gonna be a very solid guy in his zone just because of size but also the guy makes some pretty risky plays in his own zone, but he'll be fun to watch on the Offensive side. See him more as PP specialist. He's gonna have to be paired up with an experienced player who's big and can skate (Coburn), that can clean up the risky plays he's gonna be prone to making up at the NHL level.

Still his skating, stick handling and shot are a beauties. Let's hope he doesn't go the way of Michael Ratchuck (06, 2nd round pick #42 overall) who last time i heard was in Austria or in the echl somewhere right now. Although Ratchuck never put up the numbers in college that Ghost has.

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Gotta say i just love to laugh at the canadian fans that thought once again canada would run away with this.



Looking forward to the Czech vs. Slovak match up
- Yosimar89

I really wanted to see Canada lose and set up a quarterfinal matchup of Russia v. Canada.

That would have guaranteed disappointment for one of them and that would have made me happy

I really hope the Ghost turns pro after this year. I'm not sure what another year at the college ranks would do for him, other then allow him to get physically stronger.

Looking forward to see if he can handle the defensive zone at the pro level.
- ravishingone

Id like to see him head to the AHL. It would be the perfect next step and allow him to work on his defense against physically stronger opponents.

It would also give me a reason to go watch them.

I really wanted to see Canada lose and set up a quarterfinal matchup of Russia v. Canada.

That would have guaranteed disappointment for one of them and that would have made me happy
- PhillySportsGuy

Yes, but you know what would be even more disappointing? them losing to the US in the finals or knockout rounds