wouldnt the plan be for either schenn or vinny to take over the second line center duties, and with it the corresponding ice time?
- stayinthefnnet

There's plenty of icetime to go around. Couturier is always going to see top ice time for the Flyers in my opinion. Especially once his offensive game catches up to his defensive game. Hopefully.

Couturier is 2nd overall in minutes played among Flyers forwards. Only Giroux plays more. That is for both TOI per game and ES icetime.
- MJL

mason lets in less goals when couturier isn't on the ice

mason lets in less goals when couturier isn't on the ice
- 2Real

to me thats a stat that can be tricky though. it could be partly because coots is out against better competition, who are better at putting the puck in the net. imagine what the numbers could look like if coots wasnt out there

to me thats a stat that can be tricky though. it could be partly because coots is out against better competition, who are better at putting the puck in the net. imagine what the numbers could look like if coots wasnt out there
- stayinthefnnet

as the stats show they're lower
mason also lets in more goals when giroux is on the ice and we know he can be a pretty big bone head when it comes to d coverage

Most goal scorers need to have someone pass them the puck in good spots. And certainly Thornton was a big part of that. But Cheechoo still has to make the shots, and get himself in the right spots. If it's all Thornton, then why don't they just put Cheechoo back with him and he'll be a 50 goal guy again. There's a reason why it didn't last and he spent 4 year in the AHL and is now in the KHL.

To get to the point at hand, when I watch a player and decide whether he's a good player or not. Or whether he has played well or not. I look at that player individually on his own merits. Certainly playing with better players can elevate a player. We see that with player's like Kunitz and Dupuis. Good players in their own rights, but they're production is elevated playing with Crosby. But if they don't play well, it's not going to matter.
- MJL

You pretty much answered the Cheechoo thing yourself... the knee issue was a big hurdle, but he had already been struggling before that despite still lining up w/ Thornton and still getting a ton of PP time. He just played over his head for one magical season... we've seen it before with countless other players. Whereas Thornton has never struggled to tally assists with virtually anybody he's played with. It's pretty easy to spot who was carrying whom.

And to speak to your latter paragraph, I never said any of those guys weren't playing well or weren't good players... I just suggested that they were likely experiencing a productivity boost from having two all-world teammates making life easier for them, much like Dupuis, Kunitz, and Tarnstrom, Goligoski, etc did before them. Letang's no doubt a really good offensive dman... but point-per-game good on any other team? I'm not so sure.

to me thats a stat that can be tricky though. it could be partly because coots is out against better competition, who are better at putting the puck in the net. imagine what the numbers could look like if coots wasnt out there
- stayinthefnnet

And lots of D zone starts.

And lots of D zone starts.
- MJL

exactly

You pretty much answered the Cheechoo thing yourself... the knee issue was a big hurdle, but he had already been struggling before that despite still lining up w/ Thornton and still getting a ton of PP time. He just played over his head for one magical season... we've seen it before with countless other players. Whereas Thornton has never struggled to tally assists with virtually anybody he's played with. It's pretty easy to spot who was carrying whom.

And to speak to your latter paragraph, I never said any of those guys weren't playing well or weren't good players... I just suggested that they were likely experiencing a productivity boost from having two all-world teammates making life easier for them, much like Dupuis, Kunitz, Tarnstrom, Goligoski, etc did before them. Letang's no doubt a really good offensive dman... but point-per-game good on any other team? I'm not so sure.
- Tomahawk

Cheechoo also scored 37 goals the Season after scoring 56 goals. Something changed. But the point is that it wasn't all Thornton. Cheechoo also had a lot to do with it. If that wasn't the case they could've just kept Cheechoo with Thornton and he would've kept right on scoring goals. Thornton is certainly one of the top playmakers in the NHL, but he can't turn a scrub into a goal scorer. All of the players that have scored a lot of goals playing with Thornton have a lot of talent.

Cheechoo also scored 37 goals the Season after scoring 56 goals. Something changed. But the point is that it wasn't all Thornton. Cheechoo also had a lot to do with it. If that wasn't the case they could've just kept Cheechoo with Thornton and he would've kept right on scoring goals. Thornton is certainly one of the top playmakers in the NHL, but he can't turn a scrub into a goal scorer. All of the players that have scored a lot of goals playing with Thornton have a lot of talent.
- MJL

The list of guys who played well only while they were with 19 isn't short... Cheechoo, Setoguchi, Glen Murray, Samsonov, Clowe, etc. His ability to turn borderline top-6 players into top-line goal-scoring machines is pretty well documented.

So yeah, I don't believe guys always produce on their own merit... I believe the adage about certain guys making the guys around them better to be true. I suspect 87 and 71 make others better.

The list of guys who played well only while they were with 19 isn't short... Cheechoo, Setoguchi, Glen Murray, Samsonov, Clowe, etc. His ability to turn borderline top-6 players into top-line goal-scoring machines is pretty well documented.

So yeah, I don't believe guys always produce on their own merit... I believe the adage about certain guys making the guys around them better to be true. I suspect 87 and 71 make others better.
- Tomahawk

that they do. but its not as cut and dry as that though. look up dupuis play in the pass few years when crosby is out. its unfortunately been enough where the sample size is pretty large.

The list of guys who played well only while they were with 19 isn't short... Cheechoo, Setoguchi, Glen Murray, Samsonov, Clowe, etc. His ability to turn borderline top-6 players into top-line goal-scoring machines is pretty well documented.

So yeah, I don't believe guys always produce on their own merit... I believe the adage about certain guys making the guys around them better to be true. I suspect 87 and 71 make others better.
- Tomahawk

i dont think the fact that guys can produce on their own merit while simultaneously being made better by those around them are mutually exclusive though. a guy can be taken to a new level by someone, but it doesnt always mean he will become a plug without the other.

It's Florida. Gotta make sure the illegals have something to watch on TV.
- Flyersgod

Right because all spanish speakers in this country are illegal.

i dont think the fact that guys can produce on their own merit while simultaneously being made better by those around them are mutually exclusive though. a guy can be taken to a new level by someone, but it doesnt always mean he will become a plug without the other.
- stayinthefnnet

Didn't mean to come across as saying any of your top-4 dmen are plugs... only that it's really hard to gauge their individual merit since they're likely being collectively lifted by 87/71 -- to what extent, it's hard to really know until the guy lands on another team.

I kind of expect the team that shells out $$$ to Niskanen this summer will live to regret it, even if it's the Pens.

Cheechoo also scored 37 goals the Season after scoring 56 goals. Something changed. But the point is that it wasn't all Thornton. Cheechoo also had a lot to do with it. If that wasn't the case they could've just kept Cheechoo with Thornton and he would've kept right on scoring goals. Thornton is certainly one of the top playmakers in the NHL, but he can't turn a scrub into a goal scorer. All of the players that have scored a lot of goals playing with Thornton have a lot of talent.
- MJL

and they did the sharks god rid of cheechoo

Right because all spanish speakers in this country are illegal.
- Pixote Andolini

not all but most

Didn't mean to come across as saying any of your top-4 dmen are plugs... only that it's really hard to gauge their individual merit since they're likely being collectively lifted by 87/71 -- to what extent, it's hard to really know until the guy lands on another team.

I kind of expect the team that shells out $$$ to Niskanen this summer will live to regret it, even if it's the Pens.
- Tomahawk

no not at all. no offense taken. we all go back in forth in here, i dont take anything personal or as just dumb insults from you guys. i just think the whole notion is a grey one and hard to totally box as far as guys being good on their own and benefiting from teammates.

and i agree about niskanen. its the perfect storm for him to cash in. the weak market is a boon for him

The list of guys who played well only while they were with 19 isn't short... Cheechoo, Setoguchi, Glen Murray, Samsonov, Clowe, etc. His ability to turn borderline top-6 players into top-line goal-scoring machines is pretty well documented.

So yeah, I don't believe guys always produce on their own merit... I believe the adage about certain guys making the guys around them better to be true. I suspect 87 and 71 make others better.
- Tomahawk

I definitely agree that some players make other players around them better. And let's clarify what I said. Joe Thornton isn't going to make any player into a good player. Nor can Thornton make a player who is playing poorly, play well. If Cheechoo and Clowe are on a line with Thornton and don't play well, it's not going to matter. If they don't play hard and go to the net, it's not going to matter. And that would be on Clowe and Cheechoo, not Thornton. Like I said previously, if it was all Thornton, then they should've left Cheechoo there to continue to rack up goals. But that didn't happen, which makes my point. When you look at a player and assess whether he's a good player or not, it's on his own merit. And scoring goals isn't the only metric for deciding if a player has played well.