I agree he can still improve due to his age. But to what extent? His offense I think we can agree isn't going to get much better( which is fine, never expected much) his Defense.?? Maybe a little more consistent and not getting best by his average at best speed? Overall not a whole lot to improve. That's shy I said " pretty much" what you see is what you get.
- SMS4016

Exactly. He's got slightly below average speed, he's an average guy with the puck, and he's prone to making mental mistakes.

The key for him is to eliminate or at least minimize the mental mistakes. He does that, he'll be a decent second pair guy, who can bring physicality and be solid. I think his other shortcomings limit him to being a second pair guy, which is fine, because you need guys like that.

yea ok not ever gm is as dumb as homer
- 2Real

Stevie y. I mean he did leave g off team Canada somehow

First of all, the Flyers didn't trade the JVR of today, they traded JVR 2 Seasons ago. And if he was worth more in a trade, then I think they would've gotten more in return. I think JVR's value when the deal was made is being over valued. And in my opinion, it doesn't come close to the Eminger deal.
- MJL

The JVR of that day was still on pace for his 2nd straight season of 20 goals and 40 pts scoring 11 goals and 24 pts in 43 games. The Luke Schenn of that day was a 3rd pair defenseman receiving the least minutes on a poor team as well as being a healthy scratch. As far as potential, a top line winger doesn't equal a defensive defenseman no matter how elite. So Holmgren paid for potential why Burke paid for production in a injury plagued season. It was a terrible trade at the time and worst now since Schenn hasn't improved as he is still a 3rd pair defenseman receiving limited minutes as well as being a healthy scratch.

Hey I like scenn but once he starts playing more than around 15 minutes a game his weaknesses start to get exposed. He's not consistent game in and game out. He can be vwry effective when slotted in proper spot and if we had true #1 it would make all our d slot better. Yes schenn can fill in the top 4 for awhile but when given that chance he gets exposed. After 6 years he is pretty much what he is. Just think we could have gotten a little more for jvr than that.
- SMS4016

I think he's actually the opposite of that. He tends to thrive on big minutes (His 32 minute game last year was outstanding), and tends to falter with fewer minutes.

Flyers, in part, traded JVR because he played soft while in Philly. Another thing I think the Flyers never got over was JVR not wanting to go pro and went back to school. If JVR played more like the man he is now while in philly, he'd still be here

Exactly. They also got a better player in the Talbot-Downie deal than the one they gave up.
- Jsaquella

I don't think that's a unanimous opinion. #nitpick

EDIT: an unanimous? I require grammatical guidance.

Flyers, in part, traded JVR because he played soft while in Philly. Another thing I think the Flyers never got over was JVR not wanting to go pro and went back to school. If JVR played more like the man he is now while in philly, he'd still be here
- twpguy

Why couldn't he just play like he did against buffalo in the playoffs. WTF!!!

Point 1) They gave up Talbot to get Downie, not a former 2nd-overall pick,
Point 2) Sure, but you ideally don't want to be trading your most valued assets for them.
- Tomahawk

I'm not comparing the two trades in terms of assets. I'm comparing how a trade is looked at. A trade should not be judged as a bad trade because it didn't acquire a player in return that is the team's biggest need. It should be judged on the merits of the trade itself. And when some stated the opinion that they didn't like the Downie trade because it didn't add what some felt was a bigger need, the trade was rationalized with the same thought that just because the deal didn't add what was a bigger need, didn't make the deal a bad deal. Now we see a different standard here. Just because they didn't get the "right" kind of defenseman. Instead of looking at the trade on it's own merits. It's a double standard.
And as far as point 2. I disagree. If Luke Schenn becomes a consistent 20 minute a night physical defenseman, that can play a lot of tough minutes in tough situations, then they've added a valuable player. A player that I believe is a more valuable player then a 30 goal Winger.
And I'll again add that this story isn't fully written. We don't even know if JVR has reached his apex as a player. He may grow into a 40+ goal scorer and one of the top goal scoring forwards in the League. We don't know yet.

Would anybody prefer a big forward or one a bit smaller at whatever spot they select in June?

I agree he can still improve due to his age. But to what extent? His offense I think we can agree isn't going to get much better( which is fine, never expected much) his Defense.?? Maybe a little more consistent and not getting best by his average at best speed? Overall not a whole lot to improve. That's shy I said " pretty much" what you see is what you get.
- SMS4016

I disagree. There is a lot of room for growth in Luke Schenn's game. His speed and his offense isn't where we're going to see growth. If it happens we'll see it in his read and anticipation of plays. His positioning and experience level on the ice. And in his level of consistency. That's what is going to decide how good of a player Schenn is going to become. Lot's of room for growth there.

Exactly. They also got a better player in the Talbot-Downie deal than the one they gave up.

Making a deal that only fills a minor need isn't bad, but paying a premium price for it isn't a great idea.
- Jsaquella

Luke Schenn didn't fill a minor need. It was a high priority need in the Organization.

Good discussion on JVR/Schenn. I didn't like the deal when it happened, but not becuase they traded JVR for Schenn. It was because they traded JVR at all. I always felt he would eventually become the player we hoped he be. A player of his size and style will take longer to develop in the NHL, IMO. And the same goes for Schenn. Schenn is a physical player with not a lot of foot speed. He needs to be smart and make good decisions to thrive. If he makes the right decisions he looks like a beast out there. I think that's a skill that is developed with time and why he will only get better. I don't think he suddenly became a bad defensemen. I just think it will require time. In the end, if Schenn becomes the player we've seen he could
be, I think it will end up being a fair deal.
- funmaster18

I agree. When the deal was first made, I didn't like it. Gut reaction and emotion involved there. I was looking forward to watching JVR blossom as a Flyer hopefully on a line with Giroux. I think he would've been great in that spot. But as that initial reaction wore off, I understood the deal. I still like the deal. I may not in the future. We'll see.

Exactly. He's got slightly below average speed, he's an average guy with the puck, and he's prone to making mental mistakes.

The key for him is to eliminate or at least minimize the mental mistakes. He does that, he'll be a decent second pair guy, who can bring physicality and be solid. I think his other shortcomings limit him to being a second pair guy, which is fine, because you need guys like that.
- Jsaquella

If Chris Therien can become a solid compliment to a #1 defenseman on a top pairing. I think Luke Schenn can also.I think his upside is higher then a 2nd pair player. He may not get there, but we'll see.

The JVR of that day was still on pace for his 2nd straight season of 20 goals and 40 pts scoring 11 goals and 24 pts in 43 games. The Luke Schenn of that day was a 3rd pair defenseman receiving the least minutes on a poor team as well as being a healthy scratch. As far as potential, a top line winger doesn't equal a defensive defenseman no matter how elite. So Holmgren paid for potential why Burke paid for production in a injury plagued season. It was a terrible trade at the time and worst now since Schenn hasn't improved as he is still a 3rd pair defenseman receiving limited minutes as well as being a healthy scratch.
- psuhockey

At the time of the deal, JVR was just as inconsistent as Luke Schenn was as a defenseman. In fact if you look at each player's career to that point. You can make the argument that Luke Schenn played a larger role on an NHL team to that point, then JVR did. It was a solid deal at the time, and while right now it may be slighted towards Toronto's side of the ledger. But that can change. Last year Schenn was more then a 3rd pair player. And if you look at JVR, he still has the same battles with inconsistency. I think the problem here is that a goal scoring forward is a more flashy player. And a physical defensive defenseman isn't "sexy" enough. And I disagree that Burke payed for production while Holmgren paid for potential. Both players were basically in the same spot. I don't know how you can measure a scoring line Winger to a defensive defenseman in terms of production and say that both players are being judged on an even scale.

The problem with JvR for Schenn, for me, is two fold.

One, when comparing the two side to side, you have to look at potential and the likelihood of each player reaching that potential. IMO, JvR not only has a higher ceiling, but also seems more likely of reaching that ceiling.

JvR scored at a 30 goal pace in last year's lockout shortened season. He's again on pace for 30 goals this season. Schenn has been far more inconsistent, which was his pattern in Toronto, as well.

The second factor is, did the trade fill a need...and in the case of adding Schenn, it did fill a couple needs. However, it failed to fill the most pressing of needs. The Flyers had a 37 year old Kimmo Timonen and a UFA to be in Matt Carle in terms of proven puck moving defensemen with good mobility.

If Schenn's most important quality was being a righty shot...that's not a good deal, even with the lack of righty shooting defenseman.

I try not to get too high or two low about the team, and I was encouraged by Schenn's play last season. But the Flyers should have gotten more for JvR than a second pair, physical defenseman. It's not trashing them, it's simply offering an opinion.

I'm not saying they should get rid of Schenn for whatever the market will bear, just wish they had made a better trade in dumping JvR
- Jsaquella

The thought of this trade sickens me. I like homer and most of his trades are great but this one was a fail on his part. I agree with all the points you posted here.

The thought of this trade sickens me. I like homer and most of his trades are great but this one was a fail on his part. I agree with all the points you posted here.
- moylander

im glad you guys made this deal, but in fairness to homer i dont think this trade was as worrisome when it was made as it appears to look now. you can at least see the thought process behind it.

Would anybody prefer a big forward or one a bit smaller at whatever spot they select in June?
- ob18

I'd love to see Nick Ritchie or Kapanen fall into their laps, but I doubt that happens. I really like the US forward prospects in this draft especially Dylan Larkin and Alex Tuch. 2 big guys who play a power game and should be available when the Flyers pick.

im glad you guys made this deal, but in fairness to homer i dont think this trade was as worrisome when it was made as it appears to look now. you can at least see the thought process behind it.
- stayinthefnnet

Ceilings and potential aside, my only gripe, which was the gripe of quite a few of the followers here, was the return.

I didn't mind moving JVR. I wouldn't mind anybody being moved provided the return makes the team better.

When the whispers regarding this trade started circulating, the consensus seemed to be "OK, Schenn plus who...?" I was expecting at least a draft pick to be included if it was to come to fruition. Anything else and I would've been of the belief that we sold short at that time. I still believe that.

Regardless of how either player eventually turns out, I believe Homer should have held out for an additional chip in the deal.

At the time of the deal, JVR was just as inconsistent as Luke Schenn was as a defenseman. In fact if you look at each player's career to that point. You can make the argument that Luke Schenn played a larger role on an NHL team to that point, then JVR did. It was a solid deal at the time, and while right now it may be slighted towards Toronto's side of the ledger. But that can change. Last year Schenn was more then a 3rd pair player. And if you look at JVR, he still has the same battles with inconsistency. I think the problem here is that a goal scoring forward is a more flashy player. And a physical defensive defenseman isn't "sexy" enough. And I disagree that Burke payed for production while Holmgren paid for potential. Both players were basically in the same spot. I don't know how you can measure a scoring line Winger to a defensive defenseman in terms of production and say that both players are being judged on an even scale.
- MJL

Luke Schenn at the time of the trade was getting the least amount of minutes as a 3rd pair defenseman of any Toronto blueliner. Mike Komisarek and Cody Franson each averaged more ice time. He was actually 7th on the team for that year, 8th if you include Keith Aulie 17 games. Add to that being a healthy scratch a few times. JVR the year he was traded averaged 15:10 of ice time. Luke Schenn averaged 16:02. So what is your justification for saying Luke Schenn played a larger role on his team that year when as a defensemen when each were in the lineup he played less than a minute more than JVR a forward. Luke Schenn played better the year before but so did JVR when he scored 20 during the season and 7 goals in 11 games in the playoffs so you cant even use the year before as a favorable comparison for Luke Schenn.

So you would trade Brayden Schenn for Ian Cole? or Patrick Wiercioch? or John Moore? Those are young defensemen averaging about 16 minutes a night right now and B.Schenn is about the same as JVR was at the time except B. Schenn has not produced a 20 goal season yet (will probably this year).

Ceilings and potential aside, my only gripe, which was the gripe of quite a few of the followers here, was the return.

I didn't mind moving JVR. I wouldn't mind anybody being moved provided the return makes the team better.

When the whispers regarding this trade started circulating, the consensus seemed to be "OK, Schenn plus who...?" I was expecting at least a draft pick to be included if it was to come to fruition. Anything else and I would've been of the belief that we sold short at that time. I still believe that.

Regardless of how either player eventually turns out, I believe Homer should have held out for an additional chip in the deal.
- 77rams

i dont find anything wrong with that reasoning whatsoever. im not a huge fan of schenns. never have been. but for a litany of reasons, especially at that point in his career, he was valued pretty high.

Brian Burke made fantastic trades.

and there isnt in Toronto?
- KINGKENZO

Seriously, the pressure in Toronto can be just as bad or worse than in Philly. Toronto is very serious about their hockey team and can be very hard on them when things are not going well.

At the time of the deal, JVR was just as inconsistent as Luke Schenn was as a defenseman. In fact if you look at each player's career to that point. You can make the argument that Luke Schenn played a larger role on an NHL team to that point, then JVR did. It was a solid deal at the time, and while right now it may be slighted towards Toronto's side of the ledger. But that can change. Last year Schenn was more then a 3rd pair player. And if you look at JVR, he still has the same battles with inconsistency. I think the problem here is that a goal scoring forward is a more flashy player. And a physical defensive defenseman isn't "sexy" enough. And I disagree that Burke payed for production while Holmgren paid for potential. Both players were basically in the same spot. I don't know how you can measure a scoring line Winger to a defensive defenseman in terms of production and say that both players are being judged on an even scale.
- MJL

JVR had shown huge potential at times but what got him traded in my opinion was the fact he could not stary healthy. I mean what did not happen to him injury wise. I think it was a durability issue and the fact Schenn had potential as well.

Go Finland!!

Luke Schenn at the time of the trade was getting the least amount of minutes as a 3rd pair defenseman of any Toronto blueliner. Mike Komisarek and Cody Franson each averaged more ice time. He was actually 7th on the team for that year, 8th if you include Keith Aulie 17 games. Add to that being a healthy scratch a few times. JVR the year he was traded averaged 15:10 of ice time. Luke Schenn averaged 16:02. So what is your justification for saying Luke Schenn played a larger role on his team that year when as a defensemen when each were in the lineup he played less than a minute more than JVR a forward. Luke Schenn played better the year before but so did JVR when he scored 20 during the season and 7 goals in 11 games in the playoffs so you cant even use the year before as a favorable comparison for Luke Schenn.


- psuhockey

I didn't say that Luke Schenn played a larger role for his team that year. I said he played a larger role in his CAREER for the Leafs at that point then JVR did for the Flyers to that point. Schenn to that point in a few Seasons, had been a top minute defenseman, both in terms of ES minutes and in PK minutes. JVR to that point was not a top minute player for the Flyers at any point in his career in ES minutes or on the PP.
And again here we are comparing a scoring line Winger to a defensive defenseman, using goals. Not an even playing field for comparison. A defensive defenseman is just not sexy enough when compared to a goal scoring winger.

So you would trade Brayden Schenn for Ian Cole? or Patrick Wiercioch? or John Moore? Those are young defensemen averaging about 16 minutes a night right now and B.Schenn is about the same as JVR was at the time except B. Schenn has not produced a 20 goal season yet (will probably this year).
- psuhockey

That's not an accurate comparison. But there seems to be this ideology that the Flyers traded a blossoming top offensive winger, for a ho hum so so talented 3rd pair defenseman. When the reality is that both players had shown promise at times, as well as inconsistency to their career at that point. And both teams had different needs. It was a hockey trade in which the outcome, has yet to be decided.