How dare you demand the top scoring players for Team USA to step up and score in the biggest game of the tournament.

It's all Wheeler's fault.


Obviously, nobody stepped up and got the job done, except maybe Jonathon Quick. But, the coaching staff relied heavily on JvR, Kane and Kessel to provide offense, and none of them did today, and JvR and Kane arguably had their worst games of the Olympics.

Pointing that out shouldn't be something that should be criticized, but of course, any opinion voiced is a cause for some to start an argument.
- Jsaquella

Well, evidently, the Canadians didn't care about how good the U.S. looked against Slovakia. I guess I should've been more disappointed that Drew Doughty and his crew didn't recognize how much room they needed to give our Top 6 forwards so they could light them up.

http://victoryjournal.com/stories/hockey-story

Awesome animated comic book about the Flyers playing the USSR in 1976.
Featuring The Fog, EVI and Kate Smith!

That was snark.

I just hate when people blame the top scorers if goals aren't scored. It is a team game. The forwards rely heavily on the defense for scoring. Its difficult to get offense going when the team's breakouts are terrible.

Everyone was mad at Kane for being 'selfish' and 'trying to do too much' and now they're upset for the opposite.
- PhillySportsGuy

i thought so. and exactly.

Yes. I wonder if he will be JVRed if he is not set on turning pro. i.e. get labeled with "lack of commitment" or some other dumb poop.
- feelingkettle

In the case of JvR, I think that the expectations and draft position played a role in the Flyers "desire"(for lack of a better word) to see him sign and turn pro immediately.

With Gostisbehere, he was a third rounder, and they knew they'd have to let him develop. Another factor is that JvR was a big kid at 18, and had size and strength. Gostisbehere is smallish, even now after two year at college. There's less chance of the Flyers saying he's big & strong enough to learn on the job.

That said, I'm not sure how much another season with Union will help his development. He pretty much dominated, and would probably be helped more by going to the AHL next season than returning for his junior year

i thought so. and exactly.
- stayinthefnnet

Exactly what?

I haven't said a word about Patrick Kane since the Olympics started. So I don't know who "everybody" is.

In the case of JvR, I think that the expectations and draft position played a role in the Flyers "desire"(for lack of a better word) to see him sign and turn pro immediately.

With Gostisbehere, he was a third rounder, and they knew they'd have to let him develop. Another factor is that JvR was a big kid at 18, and had size and strength. Gostisbehere is smallish, even now after two year at college. There's less chance of the Flyers saying he's big & strong enough to learn on the job.

That said, I'm not sure how much another season with Union will help his development. He pretty much dominated, and would probably be helped more by going to the AHL next season than returning for his junior year
- Jsaquella

It has to do with physical maturity. JVR was physically ready for the NHL, but went back to play against college kids instead. It made him look like a guy who didn't want to compete. I always thought it was because he wanted to enjoy college life for one more year. Who wouldn't want to be the most popular athlete on campus for an extra year?

I believe JVR admitted later that it was a mistake and delayed his development a year.

Ghost needs to get physically stronger.

Exactly what?

I haven't said a word about Patrick Kane since the Olympics started. So I don't know who "everybody" is.
- AllInForFlyers

The major criticism of Kane was that he was trying to be too cute with the puck and trying to play too much 1 on 1 or 1 on 2.

Because other parts of the team don't matter. When goals aren't scored, its all the goal scorers faults. When goals are scored against, its the defenseman and goalie's fault.
- PhillySportsGuy

Not saying that at all.

When guys like JvR are being counted on heavily to provide offense and come out and have their worst performance during the team's biggest game, it's far from being unfair to point it out.

It's also not "scapegoating", it's simply a fact. JvR was awful today. He had several turnovers, and didn't drive the net anywhere near as well as he had in the other games of the tournament.

It's absolutely valid to criticize him for his performance today.

yeah. winnipeg should totally dump him off to the pens for their next two available second rounders
- stayinthefnnet

How he played so little...it just baffles me. Big guy, good hands, skates well....plays under 2 minutes.

It has to do with physical maturity. JVR was physically ready for the NHL, but went back to play against college kids instead. It made him look like a guy who didn't want to compete. I always thought it was because he wanted to enjoy college life for one more year. Who wouldn't want to be the most popular athlete on campus for an extra year?

I believe JVR admitted later that it was a mistake and delayed his development a year.

Ghost needs to get physically stronger.
- PhillySportsGuy

That's part of it, for sure.

But to say that the Flyers were impatient with JvR isn't being unfair. He played 7 games in the AHL and basically developed as a pro in the NHL.

Why didn't Kane go around Weber like he had lead skates on, and beat Price with a shot Doc Emrick had no clue where the puck was?

Not saying that at all.

When guys like JvR are being counted on heavily to provide offense and come out and have their worst performance during the team's biggest game, it's far from being unfair to point it out.

It's also not "scapegoating", it's simply a fact. JvR was awful today. He had several turnovers, and didn't drive the net anywhere near as well as he had in the other games of the tournament.

It's absolutely valid to criticize him for his performance today.
- Jsaquella

There are more goal scorers than JVR and Kane. Guys like Pavelski, Parise, Kesler, Pacioretty, Kessel and Oshie have all been known to put the puck in the net. And, yes, several of those guys see PP time like Kane and JVR.

Stop singling out players and look at the big picture. They were outplayed from top to bottom.

Not saying that at all.

When guys like JvR are being counted on heavily to provide offense and come out and have their worst performance during the team's biggest game, it's far from being unfair to point it out.

It's also not "scapegoating", it's simply a fact. JvR was awful today. He had several turnovers, and didn't drive the net anywhere near as well as he had in the other games of the tournament.

It's absolutely valid to criticize him for his performance today.
- Jsaquella

Exactly -- I didn't say the guy needed to be exiled off-planet. I just said that this year's edition of Team USA needed them to be better against Canada.

Again, I know you get it.

How he played so little...it just baffles me. Big guy, good hands, skates well....plays under 2 minutes.
- Jsaquella

13th forward. Team USA looked so good through their first 4 games. It was hard to deviate.

Wheeler had one good rush I remember.

Well, evidently, the Canadians didn't care about how good the U.S. looked against Slovakia. I guess I should've been more disappointed that Drew Doughty and his crew didn't recognize how much room they needed to give our Top 6 forwards so they could light them up.
- AllInForFlyers

You have to be willing to pay the price to go to the areas where you can score goals.

Price played well, but how often did he have to make a stop with a guy in his kitchen? How many shots did he have a clear view of, because the US forwards were not getting traffic in front?

That last one has always been one of the biggest criticisms of JvR, especially as a Flyer, that he's not consistently driving the net and going in the trenches to get the garbage.

Not saying that at all.

When guys like JvR are being counted on heavily to provide offense and come out and have their worst performance during the team's biggest game, it's far from being unfair to point it out.

It's also not "scapegoating", it's simply a fact. JvR was awful today. He had several turnovers, and didn't drive the net anywhere near as well as he had in the other games of the tournament.

It's absolutely valid to criticize him for his performance today.
- Jsaquella

I don't think that anyone has stated that it's not valid to criticize JVR or Kane. What I've said is that it's not valid to criticize JVR and Kane, and give Brown and Callahan a pass because they aren't supposed to be the best players on Team USA. That's what I disagree with. Every player on that team deserves blame. Singling out a few players, and giving other players a pass, is scapegoating in my opinion.

Exactly -- I didn't say the guy needed to be exiled off-planet. I just said that this year's edition of Team USA needed them to be better against Canada.

Again, I know you get it.
- AllInForFlyers

Why them and not others? I would rate several players ahead of JVR on this roster. They weren't counting on Parise, Kesler, Pavelski to score points?

There are more goal scorers than JVR and Kane. Guys like Pavelski, Parise, Kesler, Pacioretty, Kessel and Oshie have all been known to put the puck in the net. And, yes, several of those guys see PP time like Kane and JVR.

Stop singling out players and look at the big picture. They were outplayed from top to bottom.
- PhillySportsGuy

No one is saying they were not outplayed, top to bottom. Try reading the entire post, I said that Quick was the one guy who showed up and did his job well.

So, yes, Parise, Kesler, Pavelski...all of them came up small.

There are more goal scorers than JVR and Kane. Guys like Pavelski, Parise, Kesler, Pacioretty, Kessel and Oshie have all been known to put the puck in the net. And, yes, several of those guys see PP time like Kane and JVR.

Stop singling out players and look at the big picture. They were outplayed from top to bottom.
- PhillySportsGuy

So if you're outplayed from top to bottom, then me saying two guys on Team USA who receive plenty of ice time could've played better...just isn't something to disagree about, right?

Because either they could've played better, or they weren't good enough in the first place. It's one of those two things!

No one is saying they were not outplayed, top to bottom. Try reading the entire post, I said that Quick was the one guy who showed up and did his job well.

So, yes, Parise, Kesler, Pavelski...all of them came up small.
- Jsaquella

I thought Suter played well. He seemed to be out there a lot.

I just don't think its right for AllIn to single out Kane and JVR as guys who needed to step up and didn't play well. They all needed to step up and play well. Those guys aren't the only important players on the team who played poorly. They aren't the only scorers on the team who didn't create chances.

I thought Suter played well. He seemed to be out there a lot.

I just don't think its right for AllIn to single out Kane and JVR as guys who needed to step up and didn't play well. They all needed to step up and play well. Those guys aren't the only important players on the team who played poorly. They aren't the only scorers on the team who didn't create chances.
- PhillySportsGuy

I agree. Well said.

I thought Suter played well. He seemed to be out there a lot.

I just don't think its right for AllIn to single out Kane and JVR as guys who needed to step up and didn't play well. They all needed to step up and play well. Those guys aren't the only important players on the team who played poorly. They aren't the only scorers on the team who didn't create chances.
- PhillySportsGuy

I disagree, nor do I think he was really "singling" them out. The issue is, they were both playing very well prior to today and really were ineffective today. Kane tried to do too much and really didn't generate much and JvR had an especially rough game.

The other big names also failed to step up. But Kane and especially JvR, had let down games today. That's all. It's not blaming them or singling them out.

Why them and not others? I would rate several players ahead of JVR on this roster. They weren't counting on Parise, Kesler, Pavelski to score points?
- PhillySportsGuy

OK. Look at your post.

"You" would rate several players ahead of JVR on this roster. Fine. Your opinion. You are allowed to have it.

But I CLEARLY said that I felt that JVR and Kane, with where they are in their careers, were the players who should've led Team USA, and needed to be the best players against Canada -- and their roles on the team, the ice time they were given, indicates the coaching staff felt the same way.

I offered an opinion -- but because I did so, somebody's gotta disagree. Now, we're hearing "oh, it's a team game. Everybody's responsible."

But when some of us say "the Flyers need a better fourth line," all we hear is that "the fourth line doesn't matter." Or Jay Rosehill's the 13th forward, why should we expect anything from him?

Just make up your minds. I can't keep track of all the flip-flopping!

I disagree, nor do I think he was really "singling" them out. The issue is, they were both playing very well prior to today and really were ineffective today. Kane tried to do too much and really didn't generate much and JvR had an especially rough game.

The other big names also failed to step up. But Kane and especially JvR, had let down games today. That's all. It's not blaming them or singling them out.
- Jsaquella

AllIn:

Exactly -- but that's why I'm riding guys like JVR and Kane so hard.

Dustin Brown's an '03 -- this isn't his tournament, anymore. Four years ago was. Orpik's ancient, Callahan's a nice player, but ultimately, a complementary one.

Look who scored for Canada today: Jamie Benn. An '07. This was his tournament, the '06s-'08s.

The U.S. has the top two picks from the '07 draft on their team...both forwards...and got shut out.

It's not entirely their fault. I'm not saying it is. But at some point, yeah, JVR and Kane, you need to get the job done. We're all sorry that it's that way, but yeah, it is that way.

OK. Look at your post.

"You" would rate several players ahead of JVR on this roster. Fine. Your opinion. You are allowed to have it.

But I CLEARLY said that I felt that JVR and Kane, with where they are in their careers, were the players who should've led Team USA, and needed to be the best players against Canada -- and their roles on the team, the ice time they were given, indicates the coaching staff felt the same way.

I offered an opinion -- but because I did so, somebody's gotta disagree. Now, we're hearing "oh, it's a team game. Everybody's responsible."

But when some of us say "the Flyers need a better fourth line," all we hear is that "the fourth line doesn't matter." Or Jay Rosehill's the 13th forward, why should we expect anything from him?

Just make up your minds. I can't keep track of all the flip-flopping!
- AllInForFlyers

So JVR is the 2nd best forward on the US roster?