So who would you trade for and what would you give up?
- PhillySportsGuy

I could sit here and ryme off a bunch of canidates, but who knows if they would be available? I would say he would have to be under 28......a puck moving man d ...with some size....a guy who plays 24 + minutes a game....a guy who with 1 minute left in the game is on the ice in all 3 scenaio's...up one....down one....or tied.
What I would say is anyone with the exception of Giroux would be available depending on what comes back.....I mean Seriuosly....Wayne Gretzky got traded!!!! Wayne fricken Gretzky ....in his prime...there are NO untouchables on this team.
The only reason Giroux would be on this list is the hole it would create could not be replaced from within....ie there is no Mark Messier as the # 2 center.

..

It's the same for any player. What happens if Giroux suffers a career ending injury? Now they didn't trade for him, and give up assets, but the affect it would have on the team would be the same. What would've happened if Lidstrom, Chara, or any other top defenseman on a team suffered a career ending injury? It's really tough to make up for that. I think if the GM is going to be criticized, then all the factors need to be considered. Look at the moves that have been made, and how it might be different if Pronger didn't get hurt. Is the trade for Grossmann made? Does he re-sign Carle? etc, etc. When a franchise defenseman goes down, the easiest and most available remedy is to add peice meal, and add role playing defenseman to use a multiple player approach to try and make up for all the facets of the game that a franchise players gave you. And when top defenseman become available, take your shot at them. I know some think that the GM should've replace Pronger by now, but I don't think that's realisitc with the options that have been available.
One area in building the defense that can certainly be criticized fairly, is in drafting and developing defense. That has been lacking in the past. But I think they are taking steps to correct that.
- MJL

I think the only difference between Pronger and say Chara is that if Pronger had been signed as an UFA like Chara, the Flyers would have had more assets in their arsenal to acquire defensive help following his injury. Would they have been able to land an equivalent player? Most likely not. But perhaps they are able to land a better player than Grossmann or make a deal for someone like Schenn without giving up a JVR.

Who knows, at the end of the day its all speculation. I was just trying to point out the risk in giving up multiple assets for one player. Like I said, I would have made the Pronger deal at the time, I thought it was a good deal that significantly improved the team.

all fine and good.....but its time the problem is addressed, with more then a band aid solution.
- landros 2

much easier said than done, the list of equivalent dmen to Pronger is pretty darned short: Weber, Suter, Chara, Doughty and Keith would be about it. Four of those five aren't going anywhere and the cost to acquire Weber would be astronomical.

I could sit here and ryme off a bunch of canidates, but who knows if they would be available? I would say he would have to be under 28......a puck moving man d ...with some size....a guy who plays 24 + minutes a game....a guy who with 1 minute left in the game is on the ice in all 3 scenaio's...up one....down one....or tied.
What I would say is anyone with the exception of Giroux would be available depending on what comes back.....I mean Seriuosly....Wayne Gretzky got traded!!!! Wayne fricken Gretzky ....in his prime...there are NO untouchables on this team.
The only reason Giroux would be on this list is the hole it would create could not be replaced from within....ie there is no Mark Messier as the # 2 center.
- landros 2

The reason Gretzky was traded had zero to do with value to his team or Edmonton needing to move him. That trade would never happen in the NHL today. That trade had everything to do with money, and you can't trade money anymore.

As for your list of candidates...there's only 1 I can think of, and we signed him to a 14-year offer sheet, depending on your definition of "with some size." Are you saying he's big (like Braydon Coburn) or he plays a mean, physical game (like Pronger)?

much easier said than done, the list of equivalent dmen to Pronger is pretty darned short: Weber, Suter, Chara, Doughty and Keith would be about it. Four of those five aren't going anywhere and the cost to acquire Weber would be astronomical.
- BiggE

obviously.

I could sit here and ryme off a bunch of canidates, but who knows if they would be available? I would say he would have to be under 28......a puck moving man d ...with some size....a guy who plays 24 + minutes a game....a guy who with 1 minute left in the game is on the ice in all 3 scenaio's...up one....down one....or tied.
What I would say is anyone with the exception of Giroux would be available depending on what comes back.....I mean Seriuosly....Wayne Gretzky got traded!!!! Wayne fricken Gretzky ....in his prime...there are NO untouchables on this team.
The only reason Giroux would be on this list is the hole it would create could not be replaced from within....ie there is no Mark Messier as the # 2 center.
- landros 2

Gretzky was traded for two reasons and two reasons only:
1. Edmonton wasn't going to be able to afford his next contract
2. He wanted to be in LA
It was not a hockey trade that helped both clubs.

much easier said than done, the list of equivalent dmen to Pronger is pretty darned short: Weber, Suter, Chara, Doughty and Keith would be about it. Four of those five aren't going anywhere and the cost to acquire Weber would be astronomical.
- BiggE

If we're just talking guys who are 6'+ and 200 lb+, don't forget Pietrangelo...who, again, is going nowhere fast.

I disagree with the the notion of the "rebuild". I do not understand why a team needs to "rebuild" in the NHL. You can make the playoffs while still improving your depth. Just stop trading young assets for older assets. Make your draft picks. The Flyers have focused on drafting D-men over the last few drafts. I am ok with this team being just a playoff team while they build up assets. I do not think a team needs to be bad now to be good in 3-5 years. This is not the NBA.
- mickel25

it's remarkable though how some teams just remain bad, year after year after year, regardless of how many first round top-10 picks they have.

it's remarkable though how some teams just remain bad, year after year after year, regardless of how many first round top-10 picks they have.
- hammarby31

That's a product of bad drafting and a team that nobody wants to play for...if you're talking about the 2 teams I think you are.

The reason Gretzky was traded had zero to do with value to his team or Edmonton needing to move him. That trade would never happen in the NHL today. That trade had everything to do with money, and you can't trade money anymore.

As for your list of candidates...there's only 1 I can think of, and we signed him to a 14-year offer sheet, depending on your definition of "with some size." Are you saying he's big (like Braydon Coburn) or he plays a mean, physical game (like Pronger)?
- jmatchett383

I don't think you would get all that unless it was a Weber or Pieterangello.....just trying to point out what Flyers Lack, which is a "franchise" D man....I guess I did describe Weber!!!

Yes Gretzky was moved for $....but he was still moved. The Flyers don't have anyone of that caiber was my point.

I just don't think the makeup of this team makes them a true contender, and to me, The D is the problem....but thats just me.

it's remarkable though how some teams just remain bad, year after year after year, regardless of how many first round top-10 picks they have.
- hammarby31

I agree. That is kinda my point. For every Oilers (current) there is a Blackhawks. So there is no right way to build the team. However, there is a way to maximize your assets and depth.

Gretzky was traded for two reasons and two reasons only:
1. Edmonton wasn't going to be able to afford his next contract
2. He wanted to be in LA
It was not a hockey trade that helped both clubs.
- BiggE

Citing the Gretzky trade for why any trade can happen is akin to citing Jonathon Cheechoo in saying, "Screw the stats, Player X sucks anyway." These both deserve a "Godwin's Law" type of rule.

I think the only difference between Pronger and say Chara is that if Pronger had been signed as an UFA like Chara, the Flyers would have had more assets in their arsenal to acquire defensive help following his injury. Would they have been able to land an equivalent player? Most likely not. But perhaps they are able to land a better player than Grossmann or make a deal for someone like Schenn without giving up a JVR.

Who knows, at the end of the day its all speculation. I was just trying to point out the risk in giving up multiple assets for one player. Like I said, I would have made the Pronger deal at the time, I thought it was a good deal that significantly improved the team.
- BiggE

I like this post.

MSL might be available. Any interest here?

That's a product of bad drafting and a team that nobody wants to play for...if you're talking about the 2 teams I think you are.
- jmatchett383

I think that's the skinny of it. Drafting top players helps, for sure. You still have to ice a complete team, and whether we're talking about acquiring in free agency or just keeping your talent, you're dead in the water if players don't want to be part of your franchise.

If somebody told me from the minute Chris Pronger was acquired to right this minute as I typed this, that every single thing that went down would happen exactly the same, I'd still do it.

I understand that others disagree and that others would not. But no risk, no reward. You can wait and wait and wait and wait, be David Poile or the Florida Panthers or whoever else who thinks that Stanley Cups are awarded to those who keep salary cap space AND picks AND prospects.

Or you can look at the history of the Stanley Cup and realize that, at some key point in every single Stanley Cup winner's history, you either signed a free agent to a huge deal, or traded first-round picks, or moved prospects, or some combination of the three.

The Flyers didn't win a Stanley Cup, and Chris Pronger's career is over. But they were clearly a better team for having him, the injury was a fluke, and right this moment, they are in playoff position while having the potential for cap space this offseason and at least a couple of credible prospects in the system.

I'll take that, every day of the week. They were in overtime, at home, in Game 6 of a Stanley Cup final. I'll take it.

I don't think you would get all that unless it was a Weber or Pieterangello.....just trying to point out what Flyers Lack, which is a "franchise" D man....I guess I did describe Weber!!!

Yes Gretzky was moved for $....but he was still moved. The Flyers don't have anyone of that caiber was my point.

I just don't think the makeup of this team makes them a true contender, and to me, The D is the problem....but thats just me.
- landros 2

Well then we go back to the question which has been batted around here about 2000 times. what is a "franchise" or "elite" defenseman. Is Bouwmeester one? Is Byfuglien? Is Hamhuis? Phaneuf? Yandle? Giordano?

After we figure out what type of defenseman we need, then we have to figure out which one is actually available short of moving a package that starts with Giroux and Couturier and 4 1st round picks. Then, we have to figure out if trading that package for one player will cripple us for the next 5 years or so.

The problem is that these players almost never get to UFA (sometimes not even RFA), and they're almost never available via trade. The last one that was available (to me) was Chris Pronger back in 2009. But again, it goes back to: what is a "franchise" defenseman?

If somebody told me from the minute Chris Pronger was acquired to right this minute as I typed this, that every single thing that went down would happen exactly the same, I'd still do it.

I understand that others disagree and that others would not. But no risk, no reward. You can wait and wait and wait and wait, be David Poile or the Florida Panthers or whoever else who thinks that Stanley Cups are awarded to those who keep salary cap space AND picks AND prospects.

Or you can look at the history of the Stanley Cup and realize that, at some key point in every single Stanley Cup winner's history, you either signed a free agent to a huge deal, or traded first-round picks, or moved prospects, or some combination of the three.

The Flyers didn't win a Stanley Cup, and Chris Pronger's career is over. But they were clearly a better team for having him, the injury was a fluke, and right this moment, they are in playoff position while having the potential for cap space this offseason and at least a couple of credible prospects in the system.

I'll take that, every day of the week. They were in overtime, at home, in Game 6 of a Stanley Cup final. I'll take it.
- AllInForFlyers

Absolutely. It was a Cup-or-bust trade, and it almost worked, and if not for a freak injury, who knows? I'd do it all over again (and the Flyers very well might in the near future).

MSL might be available. Any interest here?
- Feanor

Not really, I'd rather reserve the few trade assets they have to acquire help on D in the offseason.

Not really, I'd rather reserve the few trade assets they have to acquire help on D in the offseason.
- BiggE

How about for Lecavalier?

If somebody told me from the minute Chris Pronger was acquired to right this minute as I typed this, that every single thing that went down would happen exactly the same, I'd still do it.

I understand that others disagree and that others would not. But no risk, no reward. You can wait and wait and wait and wait, be David Poile or the Florida Panthers or whoever else who thinks that Stanley Cups are awarded to those who keep salary cap space AND picks AND prospects.

Or you can look at the history of the Stanley Cup and realize that, at some key point in every single Stanley Cup winner's history, you either signed a free agent to a huge deal, or traded first-round picks, or moved prospects, or some combination of the three.

The Flyers didn't win a Stanley Cup, and Chris Pronger's career is over. But they were clearly a better team for having him, the injury was a fluke, and right this moment, they are in playoff position while having the potential for cap space this offseason and at least a couple of credible prospects in the system.

I'll take that, every day of the week. They were in overtime, at home, in Game 6 of a Stanley Cup final. I'll take it.
- AllInForFlyers

EXACTLY
and unless your prepared to spend your not going to replace "part" of what he was.....I would have done that trade ten times over.....Tough tough loss but its time to rebuild the D with that way of thinking.

Well then we go back to the question which has been batted around here about 2000 times. what is a "franchise" or "elite" defenseman. Is Bouwmeester one? Is Byfuglien? Is Hamhuis? Phaneuf? Yandle? Giordano?

After we figure out what type of defenseman we need, then we have to figure out which one is actually available short of moving a package that starts with Giroux and Couturier and 4 1st round picks. Then, we have to figure out if trading that package for one player will cripple us for the next 5 years or so.

The problem is that these players almost never get to UFA (sometimes not even RFA), and they're almost never available via trade. The last one that was available (to me) was Chris Pronger back in 2009. But again, it goes back to: what is a "franchise" defenseman?
- jmatchett383

Its so easy to say "We need a franchise defenseman and Homer needs to get one at all costs."

In reality, it's simply not that easy.

Its so easy to say "We need a franchise defenseman and Homer needs to get one at all costs."

In reality, it's simply not that easy.
- PhillySportsGuy

Well, I can tell you for a fact that the Flyers can get Shea Weber any time they want.

But they will no longer have the services of Claude Giroux, Sean Couturier, and Wayne Simmonds, they'll lose the rights to Morin, Hagg, Ghostibehere, and Stolarz, and they won't have a first round pick until 2018. But they can get Shea Weber.

Its so easy to say "We need a franchise defenseman and Homer needs to get one at all costs."

In reality, it's simply not that easy.
- PhillySportsGuy

It's not just a matter of what Holmgren wants to do, either. He can be ready to sell the farm for a franchise defenseman all he wants, it doesn't matter if nobody is making such a player available. Not that easy at all.