Well, I can tell you for a fact that the Flyers can get Shea Weber any time they want.

But they will no longer have the services of Claude Giroux, Sean Couturier, and Wayne Simmonds, they'll lose the rights to Morin, Hagg, Ghostibehere, and Stolarz, and they won't have a first round pick until 2018. But they can get Shea Weber.
- jmatchett383

I don't even think Bobby Orr would have cost that much!!!

Well, I can tell you for a fact that the Flyers can get Shea Weber any time they want.

But they will no longer have the services of Claude Giroux, Sean Couturier, and Wayne Simmonds, and they won't have a first round pick until 2018.
- jmatchett383

And that's an absurd trade to make. You rob Peter to pay Paul, and now your top centers are BSchenn and Vinny. No offense to those guys, but that's a big step down from Giroux. poop, there are a number of fans here who would have a heart attack to find out Vinny is the top center.

EXACTLY
and unless your prepared to spend your not going to replace "part" of what he was.....I would have done that trade ten times over.....Tough tough loss but its time to rebuild the D with that way of thinking.
- landros 2

There is no Pronger deal out there though. Guys like Yandle will cost Couturier + first rounder + something else. Can you imagine the asking price on legit #1 dman? It would either take Giroux+ or Couturier + B. Schenn + Morin +1st rounder.

Well then we go back to the question which has been batted around here about 2000 times. what is a "franchise" or "elite" defenseman. Is Bouwmeester one? Is Byfuglien? Is Hamhuis? Phaneuf? Yandle? Giordano?

After we figure out what type of defenseman we need, then we have to figure out which one is actually available short of moving a package that starts with Giroux and Couturier and 4 1st round picks. Then, we have to figure out if trading that package for one player will cripple us for the next 5 years or so.

The problem is that these players almost never get to UFA (sometimes not even RFA), and they're almost never available via trade. The last one that was available (to me) was Chris Pronger back in 2009. But again, it goes back to: what is a "franchise" defenseman?
- jmatchett383

To me there is a tangible difference between a franchise dman and an elite dman. A franchise guy is the first guy out in any situation and will likely play 25+ minutes per game. He will also be in the running for the Norris trophy every year. In their entire history, the Flyers have had only two franchise dmen, Mark Howe and for a short time, Chris Pronger.

An elite dman, can play on the top pairing and will be effective in that role. However, unlike a franchise guy, he won't dominate games nor make the entire D corps measurably better just by his presence. To once again use Flyers examples, elite dmen would be Jimmy Watson, Brad McCrimmon, Eric Desjardins and Kimmo Timonen.

There are very few true franchise dmen in the league and they are all but impossible to acquire. I would consider Weber, Suter, Chara, Keith and Doughty as it for now thought Pietrangelo and OEL could soon be as well. A guy like Karlsson, to me, is too one dimensional and not strong enough defensively to make this list. JayBo, Buff, Yandle etc.. are elite, but not franchise Dmen, at least in my book.

How about for Lecavalier?
- jmatchett383

deal

It's not just a matter of what Holmgren wants to do, either. He can be ready to sell the farm for a franchise defenseman all he wants, it doesn't matter if nobody is making such a player available. Not that easy at all.
- BulliesPhan87

Exactly -- that's why if you identify a guy who you think is that guy, and he's made available, then pay the price and move on.

They don't come free often, and from the way this league looks right now, they might not again. But that's why what the Flyers tried with Shea Weber wasn't wrong -- a guy like that, if you ever get a chance to get him, every single trick in the book should be explored.

I don't even think Bobby Orr would have cost that much!!!
- landros 2

But that's the point. Those players, those "elite" or "franchise" players aren't available for anything that won't cripple you for years to come. You'd fill one need by opening up 3.

Does anyone think Homer might make a move at the draft to get Ekblad? I heard Homer is really high on him.

I don't even think Bobby Orr would have cost that much!!!
- landros 2

Actually to get Orr in his prime that would have been a more than fair deal.

Does anyone think Homer might make a move at the draft to get Ekblad? I heard Homer is really high on him.
- SchennBros

Doubt the cost to move up to #1 or 2 to get him would be worth it.

To me there is a tangible difference between a franchise dman and an elite dman. A franchise guy is the first guy out in any situation and will likely play 25+ minutes per game. He will also be in the running for the Norris trophy every year. In their entire history, the Flyers have had only two franchise dmen, Mark Howe and for a short time, Chris Pronger.

An elite dman, can play on the top pairing and will be effective in that role. However, unlike a franchise guy, he won't dominate games nor make the entire D corps measurably better just by his presence. To once again use Flyers examples, elite dmen would be Jimmy Watson, Brad McCrimmon, Eric Desjardins and Kimmo Timonen.

There are very few true franchise dmen in the league and they are all but impossible to acquire. I would consider Weber, Suter, Chara, Keith and Doughty as it for now thought Pietrangelo and OEL could soon be as well. A guy like Karlsson, to me, is too one dimensional and not strong enough defensively to make this list. JayBo, Buff, Yandle etc.. are elite, but not franchise Dmen, at least in my book.
- BiggE

To me, J-Bo and Buff are simply "top-pair" defenseman, meaning that they'd be on the top pair on most teams. But I don't think either of them will magically make the defense better. Yandle, maybe. The only way that 1 player can fix this defense is to acquire what you called a "franchise" player. And they're not available. The best way now is to draft and develop a good (and relatively cheap) defense and, if the big fish comes along, throw your best at it.

Does anyone think Homer might make a move at the draft to get Ekblad? I heard Homer is really high on him.
- SchennBros

I don't think so. They'd need to jump up really high to get him. It would take a roster player like Schenn or Couts + their first rounder.

I disagree with the the notion of the "rebuild". I do not understand why a team needs to "rebuild" in the NHL. You can make the playoffs while still improving your depth. Just stop trading young assets for older assets. Make your draft picks. The Flyers have focused on drafting D-men over the last few drafts. I am ok with this team being just a playoff team while they build up assets. I do not think a team needs to be bad now to be good in 3-5 years. This is not the NBA.
- mickel25

Rebuild was a bad term. But the Flyers, rather than settle for a down year or two decided to double down with a piece meal unit. They banked heavily on being able to land Suter or Weber. When that didn't work, they were left with what they have now.

They don't need to suck, but they need to do what you're talking about. in fact, I'd be looking to sell to a minor extent, like San Jose did last season.

Actually to get Orr in his prime that would have been a more than fair deal.
- BiggE

It actually was. You take every other defenseman in the world and they fail to compare. You combine Ray Bourque and Paul Coffey and Orr is still better. One of the 3 best players of all time.

That would be like the Yankess trading Babe Ruth in 1927. There's no way.

To me, J-Bo and Buff are simply "top-pair" defenseman, meaning that they'd be on the top pair on most teams. But I don't think either of them will magically make the defense better. Yandle, maybe. The only way that 1 player can fix this defense is to acquire what you called a "franchise" player. And they're not available. The best way now is to draft and develop a good (and relatively cheap) defense and, if the big fish comes along, throw your best at it.
- jmatchett383

Agreed

Exactly -- that's why if you identify a guy who you think is that guy, and he's made available, then pay the price and move on.

They don't come free often, and from the way this league looks right now, they might not again. But that's why what the Flyers tried with Shea Weber wasn't wrong -- a guy like that, if you ever get a chance to get him, every single trick in the book should be explored.
- AllInForFlyers

I like the cut of your jib. In Mr. Landros defense, I will say I'm also getting antsy waiting for that keystone at the top of the blueline. But I understand that kind of player is going to be protected by whatever team possesses them. They'll want big value back, and they may not even be inclined at all to let go of a rare commodity.

Does anyone think Homer might make a move at the draft to get Ekblad? I heard Homer is really high on him.
- SchennBros

The Flyers have always been a "Best Player Available" sort of team, when it comes to drafting.

I'd be surprised if they made such a move in the draft.

It actually was. You take every other defenseman in the world and they fail to compare. You combine Ray Bourque and Paul Coffey and Orr is still better. One of the 3 best players of all time.
- jmatchett383

Absolutely, if Bobby Orr was in his prime today I'd be willing to trade the Flyers entire roster to get him, he was that good.

Did the Flyers really give up all that much in hindsight to get Pronger?

Lupul, Sbisa, a 2009 first round pick that became John Moore, and 2010 first round pick that became Emerson Etem. Plus some conditional picks.


Ill take Pronger every time. And I doubt you could get any current "franchise" defenseman for what we gave up. They just aren't available like that nowadays.

Its easy to play NHL 14 and make all these these trade ideas where the other team is just an incidental factor in what "we" want. Bottom line is that players that fit the bill for what the Flyers need will cost more than the Flyers can give up without setting them back.

They need to keep drafting well. And take a shot at a guy who may or may (probably) not ever become available in UFA.

It actually was. You take every other defenseman in the world and they fail to compare. You combine Ray Bourque and Paul Coffey and Orr is still better. One of the 3 best players of all time.
- jmatchett383

Bobby Orr completely changed the game with the way he played.

Yeah, growth trends mean nothing... should have traded Giroux for Erik Johnson back in 07.
- Tomahawk

Your comparing two seasons of "growth trends" of two players who don't even play the same position and are still in Junior hockey.....?

Fine. My point is I think Scott Laughton could easily be flipped for an equally promising young d-man

Your comparing two seasons of "growth trends" of two players who don't even play the same position and are still in Junior hockey.....?

Fine. My point is I think Scott Laughton could easily be flipped for an equally promising young d-man
- mochoson

If anything major DOES happen I think Laughton is the key piece to the deal. And could very well go down just like this.

All kidding aside the only franchise dman that is remotely available would be Weber and Nashville's asking price will something along the lines of Voracek, both Schenns, Morin and 2 firsts. I just don't see it happening.

I also don't want to see them ridiculously overpay for a guy like Niskanen or move Couturier and a 1st for a guy like Yandle. Maybe they can make a deal for a guy like Edler without breaking the bank as it seems like he is not one of Torts favorites, but in all likelihood we are just going to have to wait until some of the kids start to develop for this D to significantly improve.

Did the Flyers really give up all that much in hindsight to get Pronger?

Lupul, Sbisa, a 2009 first round pick that became John Moore, and 2010 first round pick that became Emerson Etem. Plus some conditional picks.


Ill take Pronger every time. And I doubt you could get any current "franchise" defenseman for what we gave up. They just aren't available like that nowadays.

Its easy to play NHL 14 and make all these these trade ideas where the other team is just an incidental factor in what "we" want. Bottom line is that players that fit the bill for what the Flyers need will cost more than the Flyers can give up without setting them back.

They need to keep drafting well. And take a shot at a guy who may or may (probably) not ever become available in UFA.
- MBFlyerfan

Pronger was also 34 when we acquired him, so we actually got him relatively cheap. Plus, Anaheim still had Scott Niedermayer, so they could allow one franchise HOF defenseman to go. The rumored packages for Weber blew that one out of the water, and it was still a big package.

I don't think so. They'd need to jump up really high to get him. It would take a roster player like Schenn or Couts + their first rounder.
- PhillySportsGuy

What do you think about the defense in the minors? Do we have guys that are ready to play next year? I read and article over on comcast that some people think Morin might be penciled in next year. Does Ghostisbere get a shot too?

Sorry. I read Bill's blogs a lot, but I cant remember the last time I posted... Didn't even realize I had an account until I tried to sign up and said my e-mail was already used...lol Speaking of which... Anyway to change a screen-name.... Its like in Indiana Jones.... "he did not choose well." lol