My issue with that defense, is an overall lack of talent.

Too many guys that are best suited to lesser roles, and are bound to be exposed one way or another.

Streit is the reverse, too.... very limited defensively. Can't have 3/6 guys in your projected top six who need to be hidden in one way or another.

I still feel like Luke a Schenn can be competent two ways... his puck moving is underrated, he just needs to even out his game to game performances.

Kimmo, at his age, is still head and shoulders the best and most reliable guy they have.
- Tomahawk

The more I think about it, the more I think losing timonen is going to be a massive letdown. UFA will not help it. They could be in big trouble.

In my opinion, Boyle is not a two way defenseman. He is another version of Streit. The majority of Boyle's shifts start in offensive situations in the offensive end, or in the neutral zone. He doesn't play against top competition. And he doesn't play on the PK. And he's not a player that you are going to put out in key defensive situations. If you have Streit on one pair, and Boyle on another. That leaves one pair to do all the heavy lifting. If they could move Streit, I'd be okay with it. But he's not the right player to add in my view.
- MJL

His numbers and usage aren't that different from Kimmo's, and Kimmo doesn't exactly have a Vlasic, Stuart or Braun to soak up all that PK time and hard matchups.

Boyle's still a very competent two way guy... nowhere near as good as he was in his prime, but still miles ahead of Streit.

The more I think about it, the more I think losing timonen is going to be a massive letdown. UFA will not help it. They could be in big trouble.
- Just5

The fact that a guy his age, is miles better than anyone they have on that back end currently speaks volumes.

Just because a guy can play 20 minutes a game, doesn't mean he plays those minutes well. I do hate the idea of trading bSchenn, but with Vancouver being a joke currently, Edler may be available, and those rumors for Buff have been there for a long while.

The Flyers will be forced to choose between risking being worse next season with the loss of Timonen, or more having to trade some of that youth up front to bring in a d-man. One more than likely, that isn't as good as Timonen anyway.

Its the price they will have to pay for not being able to develop a back end from within, and waiting until the most dire time to try. I personally hope Timonen can come back for 1 more year.

Could just be me, but it would be really nice to get a guy like Hamhuis, or say a Kronwall into this back end. Not happening, but lets say that kind of player.

Personally, Im getting somewhat annoyed with all of these "average" guys coming in, which is what they are. Macdonald included.

The fact that a guy his age, is miles better than anyone they have on that back end currently speaks volumes.

Just because a guy can play 20 minutes a game, doesn't mean he plays those minutes well. I do hate the idea of trading bSchenn, but with Vancouver being a joke currently, Edler may be available, and those rumors for Buff have been there for a long while.

The Flyers will be forced to choose between risking being worse next season with the loss of Timonen, or more having to trade some of that youth up front to bring in a d-man. One more than likely, that isn't as good as Timonen anyway.

Its the price they will have to pay for not being able to develop a back end from within, and waiting until the most dire time to try. I personally hope Timonen can come back for 1 more year.
- flyer_nutter

You can see Macdonald and Luke have a ways to getting the chemistry down b/w them. I think after last night its become very apparrent to Mac that Luke really likes to reverse that puck along the boards. Be ready!!

His numbers and usage aren't that different from Kimmo's, and Kimmo doesn't exactly have a Vlasic, Stuart or Braun to soak up all that PK time and hard matchups.

Boyle's still a very competent two way guy... nowhere near as good as he was in his prime, but miles ahead of Streit.
- Tomahawk

Kimmo averages 3:28 a game on the PK. Boyle averages :13 a game on the PK.

Kimmo Timonen is going to be on the ice in the last minutes of a game with a 1 goal lead. Boyle is not.

I disagree that Boyle is a two way defenseman. He is an offensive defenseman same as Streit. I also disagree that at this point Boyle is miles ahead of Streit. Very similar players at this point.

And I don't think adding Boyle to a defense that already has Streit is a good idea. Not the kind of player we need in my opinion.

Kimmo averages 3:28 a game on the PK. Boyle averages :13 a game on the PK.

Kimmo Timonen is going to be on the ice in the last minutes of a game with a 1 goal lead. Boyle is not.

I disagree that Boyle is a two way defenseman. He is an offensive defenseman same as Streit. I also disagree that at this point Boyle is miles ahead of Streit. Very similar players at this point.

And I don't think adding Boyle to a defense that already has Streit is a good idea. Not the kind of player we need in my opinion.
- MJL

I wonder what it would take for Kimmo to return. Not talking money but just circumstance, like if he has to believe they could have a real shot next year

Could just be me, but it would be really nice to get a guy like Hamhuis, or say a Kronwall into this back end. Not happening, but lets say that kind of player.

Personally, Im getting somewhat annoyed with all of these "average" guys coming in, which is what they are. Macdonald included.
- flyer_nutter

I'd love to get a player like Hamhuis or Kronwall. But like you said, not happening. MacDonald is a very good defenseman, who is going to make this team better.

You can see Macdonald and Luke have a ways to getting the chemistry down b/w them. I think after last night its become very apparrent to Mac that Luke really likes to reverse that puck along the boards. Be ready!!
- Just5

I am fine with Macdonald as a player, even though I do think they overpaid for just another average guy.

The thing with that pairing, is that its just another one best suited to stay away from the top lines of other teams. Flyers are full of those kind of d-men, and with the loss of Timonen, who has always provided Coburn with stability, things could get fun.

I simply just don't like Holmgren's approach to that back end. I am in a firm belief you need some of that elite talent, or at least someone of a Kronwall/Hamhuis caliber.

I really could care less how many minutes Macdonald played for the Islanders, its how good a player can play with the minutes he is given that is more important to me.

I'd love to get a player like Hamhuis or Kronwall. But like you said, not happening. MacDonald is a very good defenseman, who is going to make this team better.
- MJL

Honestly? We differ. That's okay, but Macdonald to me is just another average guy that Holmgren overpaid for, to help that back end. I think that back end in general, suffers more from being "average", than that mix itself. That back end is made up of too many guys that have to "be hid" one way or another. That are best kept away from top players, or from speedy forwards.

Macdonald definitely makes them better, but so would have a guy like Kaberle.

I would rather they keep the picks for the "right" player, instead of just going after the best available. That goes into the future of this team. Need more all-round, elite talent at the very least.

Kimmo averages 3:28 a game on the PK. Boyle averages :13 a game on the PK.

Kimmo Timonen is going to be on the ice in the last minutes of a game with a 1 goal lead. Boyle is not.

I disagree that Boyle is a two way defenseman. He is an offensive defenseman same as Streit. I also disagree that at this point Boyle is miles ahead of Streit. Very similar players at this point.

And I don't think adding Boyle to a defense that already has Streit is a good idea. Not the kind of player we need in my opinion.
- MJL

Boyle used to be a regular PK'er for them, and for Tampa. There's a big difference between not seeing PK time b/c you suck defensively, and not seeing PK time because your team is chock-full of younger guys who are great at it, so your coach can save you for other tasks.

Streit's only ever been used on the PK out of necessity.

I am fine with Macdonald as a player, even though I do think they overpaid for just another average guy.

The thing with that pairing, is that its just another one best suited to stay away from the top lines of other teams. Flyers are full of those kind of d-men, and with the loss of Timonen, who has always provided Coburn with stability, things could get fun.

I simply just don't like Holmgren's approach to that back end. I am in a firm belief you need some of that elite talent, or at least someone of a Kronwall/Hamhuis caliber.

I really could care less how many minutes Macdonald played for the Islanders, its how good a player can play with the minutes he is given that is more important to me.
- flyer_nutter

Holmgren has added top defenseman such as Timonen and Pronger. He has attempted to add Suter and Weber. So how is that not part of Holmgren's approach to the back end.

http://www.capgeek.com/ufa-finder/?position_id=D
- MJL

Well, that pretty much guarantee's the flyers won't be fixing the D via free agency!

Boyle used to be a regular PK'er for them, and for Tampa. There's a big difference between not seeing PK time b/c you suck defensively, and not seeing PK time because your team is chock-full of younger guys who are great at it, so your coach can save you for other tasks.

Streit's only ever been used on the PK out of necessity.
- Tomahawk

I really like the idea of Boyle. I understand the frustration that would come with just waiting for "the right" guy to come up through the system or become available via trade/FA.

Boyle however, if he can be signed to a 1 year deal I would gamble on. Provides a bit of a stop gap. Which is why I don't blame them for Streit all that much. I understand they need a stop gap, just cant be giving out such long contracts to aging players who are so high risk/high reward.

Boyle used to be a regular PK'er for them, and for Tampa. There's a big difference between not seeing PK time b/c you suck defensively, and not seeing PK time because your team is chock-full of younger guys who are great at it, so your coach can save you for other tasks.

Streit's only ever been used on the PK out of necessity.
- Tomahawk

And Kimmo Timonen used to be a legitimate #1 defenseman. He isn't anymore. Boyle is no longer a player that should be used in key defensive situations, such as on the PK. It's not about what each player has been in the past. It's about now. And now Boyle is limited as an offensive defenseman. And is a comparable player to Streit.

So....my dad and I were talking and he said Lemieux was hardly boo'd when he would come to town when compared to your other "targets". Like other superstars...in any sport.

Thoughts?

Honestly? We differ. That's okay, but Macdonald to me is just another average guy that Holmgren overpaid for, to help that back end. I think that back end in general, suffers more from being "average", than that mix itself. That back end is made up of too many guys that have to "be hid" one way or another. That are best kept away from top players, or from speedy forwards.

Macdonald definitely makes them better, but so would have a guy like Kaberle.

I would rather they keep the picks for the "right" player, instead of just going after the best available. That goes into the future of this team. Need more all-round, elite talent at the very least.
- flyer_nutter

MacDonald and Kaberle are not comparable. MacDonald is a player in his prime. I'd like to hear what makes MacDonald an average player or mediocre as it has been put previously?

Holmgren has added top defenseman such as Timonen and Pronger. He has attempted to add Suter and Weber. So how is that not part of Holmgren's approach to the back end.
- MJL

He has. Which I will admit, I love about him.

I simply would prefer to give the kids a shot, or save assets for the "right" players instead of just trying to improve with dumpster diving, or overpaying for average NHL d-men.

I really like the idea of Boyle. I understand the frustration that would come with just waiting for "the right" guy to come up through the system or become available via trade/FA.

Boyle however, if he can be signed to a 1 year deal I would gamble on. Provides a bit of a stop gap. Which is why I don't blame them for Streit all that much. I understand they need a stop gap, just cant be giving out such long contracts to aging players who are so high risk/high reward.
- flyer_nutter

I'm not personally in love with Boyle, but as Jsaq suggested, 1-2 year deal as a bridge to the kids would be great. Bieksa or any number of other two-way guys on shorter deals would do the trick as well.

Streit's deal was too long... unless they thought he would help replace Kimmo or Carle, but we know that he doesn't bring enough two-way game to offset the loss of either.

MacDonald and Kaberle are not comparable. MacDonald is a player in his prime. I'd like to hear what makes MacDonald an average player or mediocre as it has been put previously?
- MJL

I'm not really going into it, as it will be a debate for pages haha.

Lets just leave it at, you are free to believe MacDonald is more than an average NHL d-man. Or anyone for that matter other than Coburn/Timonen.

And Kimmo Timonen used to be a legitimate #1 defenseman. He isn't anymore. Boyle is no longer a player that should be used in key defensive situations, such as on the PK. It's not about what each player has been in the past. It's about now. And now Boyle is limited as an offensive defenseman. And is a comparable player to Streit.
- MJL

Nobody's saying bring in Boyle and ride him into the ground... we're saying, keep Kimmo, keep AMac (or another two-way guy) and bring in a guy like Boyle to share the load.... instead of continuing to trot one-dimensional guys like Streit/Grossmann out there in top-4 minutes to get exposed.

I'm not really going into it, as it will be a debate for pages haha.

Lets just leave it at, you are free to believe MacDonald is more than an average NHL d-man. Or anyone for that matter other than Coburn/Timonen.
- flyer_nutter

The bottom line is that MacDonald is a very good defenseman that will be a strong addition to this team. And he has already shown the ability he has. And nothing so far screams average in his game.
If he is truly average. Shouldn't be that hard to point out why.

I'm not personally in love with Boyle, but as Jsaq suggested, 1-2 year deal as a bridge to the kids would be great. Bieksa or any number of other two-way guys on shorter deals would do the trick as well.

Streit's deal was too long... unless they thought he would help replace Kimmo or Carle, but we know that he doesn't bring enough two-way game to offset the loss of either.
- Tomahawk

I love Bieksa, maybe 3-4 years ago. The injury history is worrisome. Do I really want to give up bSchenn for that?

I think the bigger thing for all of us to notice here, is just how unwilling teams are willing to move really quality d-men. Being able to at the very least help your quest, with growing some from within is crucial. Flyers waited too long to start that process, when they did have opportunities to do so.

The bottom line is that MacDonald is a very good defenseman that will be a strong addition to this team. And he has already shown the ability he has. And nothing so far screams average in his game.
If he is truly average. Shouldn't be that hard to point out why.
- MJL

Again, you are free to believe what you wish. No worries here.