So if JVR continues as a 30 goal, first line power forward, and L. Schenn remains a third pair defenseman that isn't a defining moment for Holmgren?

If the JVR/L Schenn trade follows it's dubious projected path, that is much more defining than building a team that lost a Stanley Cup Final by any estimation.
- PLindbergh31

One bad trade if it turns out to be bad is not even remotely close as a defining moment for a GM then building a team that went to the Cup finals.

And the JVR trade is not remotely close in terms of a defining moment then the Richards/Carter trades, or trading for Pronger.

I would say that the Carter/Richards deals are far more likely to be his defining moment as a GM, and where this current team is headed. Not to mention that he's also already built a Cup Finals team. Which is also going to be looked at as a higher moment then the JVR trade.
- MJL

I'm curious about your opinion on the Carter/Richards trades and how they're viewed now, and how they'll be viewed down the road.

When things don't work out, someone is ultimately held accountable for it regardless of circumstance. It's unfair sometimes, but that's just the way the things go.
- PLindbergh31

You can't fire a GM because your franchise defenseman, who still had several good years left, suffered a career ending injury.

I hate when people want to blame someone but don't have any better ideas. What would you have done? Traded Couts, B Schenn and 3 firsts for Weber?

You can't fire a GM because your franchise defenseman, who still had several good years left, suffered a career ending injury.

I hate when people want to blame someone but don't have any better ideas. What would you have done? Traded Couts, B Schenn and 3 firsts for Weber?
- PhillySportsGuy

I remember outside of the Cup run, and especially after, the defense was still often times complete poop, even with Pronger. I seem to recall a couple of ridiculous Winnipeg and Bolts games that were 9-8 or something crazy like that. Losing Pronger was huge, but I don't think it was the one thing that turned our D into poop. It was poop a lot of the time.

I'm curious about your opinion on the Carter/Richards trades and how they're viewed now, and how they'll be viewed down the road.
- feelingkettle

Nothing has changed about the Carter Richards trades since they were made for me. There were numerous reasons why they were made. I think if this team doesn't become a consistent top contender, then the trades will probably be looked at as having not worked out. But I can speculate that I think the end result will be positive. But as always, have to wait and see.

x2
- -davies-

and bryzaster

I remember outside of the Cup run, and especially after, the defense was still often times complete poop, even with Pronger. I seem to recall a couple of ridiculous Winnipeg and Bolts games that were 9-8 or something crazy like that. Losing Pronger was huge, but I don't think it was the one thing that turned our D into poop. It was poop a lot of the time.
- feelingkettle

I don't think one or two high scoring games defines a defense. When the Flyers had the defense of Pronger, Timonen, Carle, Coburn, Meszaros, and O'Donnell, it was one of the best cores in the League. That D was built by Holmgren.

You can't fire a GM because your franchise defenseman, who still had several good years left, suffered a career ending injury.

I hate when people want to blame someone but don't have any better ideas. What would you have done? Traded Couts, B Schenn and 3 firsts for Weber?
- PhillySportsGuy

I'm not blaming him for Pronger suffering a career ending injury. But people have to stop using that as an excuse. Did Pronger's injury force Holmgren into trading JVR for L. Schenn? Did it force him to build a defense core with redundancy?

I'm not blaming him for Pronger suffering a career ending injury. But people have to stop using that as an excuse. Did Pronger's injury force Holmgren into trading JVR for L. Schenn? Did it force him to build a defense core with redundancy?
- PLindbergh31

Yes, Pronger's injury had a huge part in all of that. Absolutely.

I remember outside of the Cup run, and especially after, the defense was still often times complete poop, even with Pronger. I seem to recall a couple of ridiculous Winnipeg and Bolts games that were 9-8 or something crazy like that. Losing Pronger was huge, but I don't think it was the one thing that turned our D into poop. It was poop a lot of the time.
- feelingkettle

They had depth problems. They fixed it with the Mez-Donnell pairing. Then Pronger suffered a back injury and the season went to poop.

Nothing has changed about the Carter Richards trades since they were made for me. There were numerous reasons why they were made. I think if this team doesn't become a consistent top contender, then the trades will probably be looked at as having not worked out. But I can speculate that I think the end result will be positive. But as always, have to wait and see.
- MJL

I still like the trades now, although using the cap space to sign Bryz was obviously a mistake. Seems like even though Richards and Carter are still good players, Richards' prime is already over, and Carter is still Carter. Even if the Flyers don't make it to a cup contender, I think they will be looked at positively, especially as Richards' and Carter's careers wind down.

I'm not blaming him for Pronger suffering a career ending injury. But people have to stop using that as an excuse. Did Pronger's injury force Holmgren into trading JVR for L. Schenn? Did it force him to build a defense core with redundancy?
- PLindbergh31

I feel JVR is on this team if Pronger is healthy.

I still like the trades now, although using the cap space to sign Bryz was obviously a mistake. Seems like even though Richards and Carter are still good players, Richards' prime is already over, and Carter is still Carter. Even if the Flyers don't make it to a cup contender, I think they will be looked at positively, especially as Richards' and Carter's careers wind down.
- feelingkettle

I believe that Carter and Richards are still very good players. But I like the trades also.

I feel JVR is on this team if Pronger is healthy.
- PhillySportsGuy

Not to mention is Grossmann acquired, is Carle kept. Is Streit signed? And on and on. The Pronger career ending injury has affected all of it, and has had a huge domino effect on what's happened since.

But the GM should've acquired either what simply is not available. Or forced his will on Nashville or Ryan Suter.

I have a crazy theory on JVR. I felt that the organization was really irritated that he didn't come out after Junior year and always held it against him. Perhaps if he turned pro a year earlier he might have a bit more accomplished. Forget the injuries he had and forget that the Flyers love Schenn type defenseman, I can't help but think that if he had turned pro earlier, he's still be a Flyer. Ghost, are you listening?

I don't think one or two high scoring games defines a defense. When the Flyers had the defense of Pronger, Timonen, Carle, Coburn, Meszaros, and O'Donnell, it was one of the best cores in the League. That D was built by Holmgren.
- MJL

Meh, they were good, but looking at the stats, 2010-2011 they allowed 2.63 goals against a game. The year after, 2.74 g/a a game. This year, they have allowed 2.86 g/a a game. The D was obviously better, but unfortunately it didn't amount to much when it mattered, i.e. the playoffs.

Not to mention is Grossmann acquired, is Carle kept. Is Streit signed? And on and on. The Pronger career ending injury has affected all of it, and has had a huge domino effect on what's happened since.

But the GM should've acquired either what simply is not available. Or forced his will on Nashville or Ryan Suter.
- MJL

I wonder what Boston would look like without Chara

Meh, they were good, but looking at the stats, 2010-2011 they allowed 2.63 goals against a game. The year after, 2.74 g/a a game. This year, they have allowed 2.86 g/a a game. The D was obviously better, but unfortunately it didn't amount to much when it mattered, i.e. the playoffs.
- feelingkettle

The one year Pronger played in the playoffs for the Flyers they came within 2 wins of a cup.

Meh, they were good, but looking at the stats, 2010-2011 they allowed 2.63 goals against a game. The year after, 2.74 g/a a game. This year, they have allowed 2.86 g/a a game. The D was obviously better, but unfortunately it didn't amount to much when it mattered, i.e. the playoffs.
- feelingkettle

That number is a team number and not a statistic just on the defense. Team defense and goaltending is all part of a team's goals per game average. They went to the Cup finals with that defense.

I was actually kind of surprised Rosehill fared so well against Mclaren. Mclaren is much, much tougher normally.
- prock

Rosehill is proving to be one of the better fighters in the league. Starting with his win over Orr last year, he has fought and beaten some of the toughest guys this year.

I have a crazy theory on JVR. I felt that the organization was really irritated that he didn't come out after Junior year and always held it against him. Perhaps if he turned pro a year earlier he might have a bit more accomplished. Forget the injuries he had and forget that the Flyers love Schenn type defenseman, I can't help but think that if he had turned pro earlier, he's still be a Flyer. Ghost, are you listening?
- 2731color

I think it bothered them when it happened, but I don't think that had anything to do with the team trading him.

It was a hockey move that doesn't look good right now. If Schenn can regain last year's form, it will be a fine.

The one year Pronger played in the playoffs for the Flyers they came within 2 wins of a cup.
- PhillySportsGuy

Yes, and they also almost missed the post season entirely. The D has never been better since that run, or at least that run until Chicago. That seems more like an anomaly to me than the norm.

I think it bothered them when it happened, but I don't think that had anything to do with the team trading him.

It was a hockey move that doesn't look good right now. If Schenn can regain last year's form, it will be a fine.
- PhillySportsGuy

I do think that impatience with JVR was part of why he was traded though.

If Sean O'Donnell was on the Defense core that was in the Finals, I find it curious why Ryan Parent, Lukas Krajicek, and Oscars Bartulis were suiting up.

That number is a team number and not a statistic just on the defense. Team defense and goaltending is all part of a team's goals per game average. They went to the Cup finals with that defense.
- MJL

No they didn't. D during the cup run:

3 Oskars Bartulis D 23 6-2 184 L/- R January 21, 1987 1 G, 8 A, 9 P
25 Matt Carle D 25 6-0 205 L/- 4 September 25, 1984 6 G, 29 A, 35 P
5 Braydon Coburn D 24 6-5 220 L/- 4 February 27, 1985 5 G, 14 A, 19 P
2 Lukas Krajicek D 26 6-3 205 L/- 6 March 11, 1983 1 G, 1 A, 2 P
77 Ryan Parent D 22 6-3 198 L/- 3 March 17, 1987 1 G, 2 A, 3 P
20 Chris Pronger D 35 6-6 220 L/- 15 October 10, 1974 10 G, 45 A, 55 P
26 Danny Syvret D 24 5-11 203 L/- 3 June 13, 1985 2 G, 2 A, 4 P
44 Kimmo Timonen D 34 5-10 194 L/- 10 March 18, 1975 6 G, 33 A, 39 P
55 Ole-Kristian Tollefsen D 25 6-2 211 L/- 4 March 29, 1984 0 G, 2 A, 2 P

http://www.hockey-referen...e.com/teams/PHI/2010.html