I think it bothered them when it happened, but I don't think that had anything to do with the team trading him.

It was a hockey move that doesn't look good right now. If Schenn can regain last year's form, it will be a fine.
- PhillySportsGuy

Hope you're right.

Yes, and they also almost missed the post season entirely. The D has never been better since that run, or at least that run until Chicago. That seems more like an anomaly to me than the norm.
- feelingkettle

Without Pronger that team doesn't even sniff the playoffs. There is no replacement for a guy who does ALL the heavy lifting on your D. Point man on top PP unit, best PK defenseman, matches up against the top lines, provides leadership.

His 2009-10 numbers

82 games, 55 points, +22. He was an absolute beast for this team.

If Sean O'Donnell was on the Defense core that was in the Finals, I find it curious why Ryan Parent, Lukas Krajicek, and Oscars Bartulis were suiting up.
- PLindbergh31

Exactly. That third pairing was a nightmare and one of the big reasons Pronger was playing half a game every game.

Exactly. That third pairing was a nightmare and one of the big reasons Pronger was playing half a game every game.
- feelingkettle

Holmgren built that third pairing. It was rock solid!

Without Pronger that team doesn't even sniff the playoffs. There is no replacement for a guy who does ALL the heavy lifting on your D. Point man on top PP unit, best PK defenseman, matches up against the top lines, provides leadership.

His 2009-10 numbers

82 games, 55 points, +22. He was an absolute beast for this team.
- PhillySportsGuy

Not sure what you're arguing with me for. Obviously he's a game changer. But defense wise, I don't think his career being over has made our d drastically worse. Goaltending, D, whatever, it's been pretty similar stat wise overall. The issue then and still is now team defense.

Holmgren built that third pairing. It was rock solid!
- PLindbergh31

very solid

I do think that impatience with JVR was part of why he was traded though.
- MJL

Totally agree with that. I think Homer wanted more, but thought he needed to make a move at that point in order to save the season. He knew the D wasn't good enough and felt JVR was expendable due to young forward depth.

If the team had Pronger they could have made due until the deadline before dealing a forward for a young defenseman.

No they didn't. D during the cup run:

3 Oskars Bartulis D 23 6-2 184 L/- R January 21, 1987 1 G, 8 A, 9 P
25 Matt Carle D 25 6-0 205 L/- 4 September 25, 1984 6 G, 29 A, 35 P
5 Braydon Coburn D 24 6-5 220 L/- 4 February 27, 1985 5 G, 14 A, 19 P
2 Lukas Krajicek D 26 6-3 205 L/- 6 March 11, 1983 1 G, 1 A, 2 P
77 Ryan Parent D 22 6-3 198 L/- 3 March 17, 1987 1 G, 2 A, 3 P
20 Chris Pronger D 35 6-6 220 L/- 15 October 10, 1974 10 G, 45 A, 55 P
26 Danny Syvret D 24 5-11 203 L/- 3 June 13, 1985 2 G, 2 A, 4 P
44 Kimmo Timonen D 34 5-10 194 L/- 10 March 18, 1975 6 G, 33 A, 39 P
55 Ole-Kristian Tollefsen D 25 6-2 211 L/- 4 March 29, 1984 0 G, 2 A, 2 P

http://www.hockey-referen...e.com/teams/PHI/2010.html
- feelingkettle

I've got my years mixed up then. There goes my faulty memory. That must have been the following year.

I think it bothered them when it happened, but I don't think that had anything to do with the team trading him.

It was a hockey move that doesn't look good right now. If Schenn can regain last year's form, it will be a fine.
- PhillySportsGuy

Also in Philly JVR was a second line forward and played with solid but not Phil Kessel esque teammates. Toronto trades for him because they need to fill an immediate hole on their top line. If he was still here today he would be paired with schenn and simmonds and would definitely be putting up some points, but not the same as he does playing with Kessel.

At least Holmgrem went out and tried to fix a hole in our defense. Sure, now it seems like a bad move, but at the time we needed defensemen. And it was something that needed to be done and every Flyers fan that I know thought the same thing at the time. Yeah, we loved JVR, but we needed to take some sort of risk to plug up the hole in our defense.

Not sure what you're arguing with me for. Obviously he's a game changer. But defense wise, I don't think his career being over has made our d drastically worse. Goaltending, D, whatever, it's been pretty similar stat wise overall. The issue then and still is now team defense.
- feelingkettle

It has made the D drastically worse. He was one of the 10 best defenseman in the league. It would be like the Flyers losing Giroux now.

Without Pronger that team doesn't even sniff the playoffs. There is no replacement for a guy who does ALL the heavy lifting on your D. Point man on top PP unit, best PK defenseman, matches up against the top lines, provides leadership.

His 2009-10 numbers

82 games, 55 points, +22. He was an absolute beast for this team.
- PhillySportsGuy

You said it all. Guys like him make everybody better.

Not sure what you're arguing with me for. Obviously he's a game changer. But defense wise, I don't think his career being over has made our d drastically worse. Goaltending, D, whatever, it's been pretty similar stat wise overall. The issue then and still is now team defense.
- feelingkettle

If losing a "game changer" doesn't make your defense worse, than he sure isn't much of a "game changer".

Those two sentences completely contradict each other.

It has made the D drastically worse. He was one of the 10 best defenseman in the league. It would be like the Flyers losing Giroux now.
- PhillySportsGuy

People talk as if the D just fell apart when Pronger left. Obviously he makes everything better. We still had a poop third pairing during the cup run. We had relatively the same goals against during the two seasons after the cup run. Whether that's goaltending or defense, whatever. I think my point is, we had D problems with Pronger in the lineup, and without. They were just different problems. The results are somewhat similar.

Not sure what you're arguing with me for. Obviously he's a game changer. But defense wise, I don't think his career being over has made our d drastically worse. Goaltending, D, whatever, it's been pretty similar stat wise overall. The issue then and still is now team defense.
- feelingkettle

You don't believe that having Pronger in this lineup in place of Grossmann or Streit, would make the Flyers a better team?

If losing a "game changer" doesn't make your defense worse, than he sure isn't much of a "game changer".

Those two sentences completely contradict each other.
- FlyersSteve118

Drastically worse. As in going from 11th in the league to near the bottom in goals against. Losing Pronger did not turn us into Edmonton, is my point. Obviously, the D is worse without Pronger. I just dispute how much statistically.

You don't believe that having Pronger in this lineup in place of Grossmann or Streit, would make the Flyers a better team?
- MJL

Please point to where I actually said that.

Drastically worse. As in going from 11th in the league to near the bottom in goals against. Losing Pronger did not turn us into Edmonton, is my point. Obviously, the D is worse without Pronger. I just dispute how much statistically.
- feelingkettle

Chris Pronger... sigh.. Im done.

Please point to where I actually said that.
- feelingkettle

I did not attribute that statement to you. It was simply a question.

I did not attribute that statement to you. It was simply a question.
- MJL

Obivously we would be better with Pronger in the lineup.

Obivously we would be better with Pronger in the lineup.
- feelingkettle

Substantially better. I believe having Pronger added to this current lineup would make this team a contender. He is that much of a difference maker. That is the point. So yes, the team's defense is significantly worse due to the loss of Pronger. All in my opinion of course.

Obivously we would be better with Pronger in the lineup.
- feelingkettle

You think if our team had a defensiveman with 55 points and a +22 rating we would be doing significantly better at this point? Or just marginally?

Substantially better. I believe having Pronger added to this current lineup would make this team a contender. He is that much of a difference maker. That is the point. So yes, the team's defense is significantly worse due to the loss of Pronger. All in my opinion of course.
- MJL

I guess my point is, adding Pronger now would not automatically fix the problems this team has. Would the help? Absolutely. It takes more than a stud D man is all I'm saying.

You think if our team had a defensiveman with 55 points and a +22 rating we would be doing significantly better at this point? Or just marginally?
- FlyersSteve118

Did we not have problems with Pronger in the lineup? Did we hot have a 10 game losing streak the year we first got him, and almost missed the playoffs completely the year of the cup run? He's not a magical fix is my point. We got swept with him in the lineup the first round of the playoffs. I'm not saying he sucks, I'm just saying there's more to our problems currently than one stud D man.

I guess my point is, adding Pronger now would not automatically fix the problems this team has. Would the help? Absolutely. It takes more than a stud D man is all I'm saying.
- feelingkettle

I agree, they would have to find consistency, to advance in the playoffs. But a leader like Pronger in the room and on the ice would contribute to that greatly.

I agree, they would have to find consistency, to advance in the playoffs. But a leader like Pronger in the room and on the ice would contribute to that greatly.
- MJL

I agree.