I have not offered a statistical argument? Did you skip over where I said Giroux has led the league in scoring since December 11 and he's now among the top 5 in scoring? The Crosby vs. Giroux statistics are closer than you think. I'll most definitely concede the regular season scoring numbers, but not by much. Giroux took another path to being elite. You have to throw away past numbers and look at their numbers right now. That's what this debate is about. Who would you rather have now? If you're going to base it on stats Crosby barely gets the edge because of his fast start and Giroux's slow one. However like I said, since December 11 Giroux's numbers are better and we are talking about right now, correct? You can't put a number on intangibles. Giroux's two way game is astronomically better than Crosby's. Giroux is dominant on the penalty kill. DOMINANT. Crosby can't spell penalty kill. When it comes to the powerplay, the numbers are close, but maybe Sid has a slight edge. It's so close though. They run the PP two different ways. G is more patient and likes to wait for good opportunities to get Hartnell the one-timer, or to Simmonds to pull it to the front and fight for rebounds. If those options aren't there, then he will usually give it to Timonen and take it from there. He also has a rocket one timer and an insanely accurate wrister through traffic. Crosby likes to make a lot of low percentage passes through the box and across the ice. However that really works for him because of his vision, passing skills and anticipation. I'd give the PP to Sid, because he's the only one that can pass like that and he also possesses a deadly one timer. G and Sid are both top 3 powerplay aces though. Giroux loves the physical play and we've all seen who's the more physical player. And hell yes Crosby shies away from physical contact. Chara had him running like a scared dog in that series last year. Zero points is what Crosby had. Zero. Let's not debate who's more physical. Crosby also dives, whines to the refs, takes stupid retaliatory penalties when players get under his skin and can be taken off his game and made ineffective when he's in his diva mode. I can't believe you're going to act like you haven't seen this before. Giroux will take the hit to make the play, get dragged down by two guys and still fight for the puck. Crosby isn't like that. Did you not see the games this weekend? He's ineffective when he's in diva mode. We've seen it happen countless times. Giroux is a top 5 defensive forward in my opinion. Crosby isn't a top 50. I have more reasons as to why I think Giroux is a better player, but these are a lot of them. Courage and attitude are the big ones that reflect on deferent aspects of the game. I didn't wanna be up arguing whether I made valid points or not but Jsquella loves creating these types of arguments so at least I made him happy.
- TonyBazz

Please use paragraphs. Its difficult to read so much packed into one paragraph.

Please use paragraphs. Its difficult to read so much packed into one paragraph.
- PhillySportsGuy

At least he has correct grammar?
Grasping at straws, but not sure why.

At least he has correct grammar?
Grasping at straws, but not sure why.
- jmatchett383

It's just so difficult to read in the morning. Makes me dizzy.

I was listening to WIP this morning (no Angelo, and they were actually talking hockey) and caller called in asking if NBC is biased towards the Penguins. As an NBC man, Jones was obliged to say that there is little bias, although Ray Shero and Pierre are very close friends. Al Morganti then had one of the best quotes I've heard in a while (i may be slightly paraphrasing):

"NBC's sports motto is fair and balanced coverage which, in the case of Pierre McGuire, means doing a headstand on Sidney Crosby's ass."

It's just so difficult to read in the morning. Makes me dizzy.
- PhillySportsGuy

I thought the entire subject matter itself was difficult to read. Like, I keep thinking it's a mirage or something.

I'm no lover of Sidney Crosby. At all. And he's the best player in the game, and it's really not that close. Sure, he has qualities about him I don't like. But the only player I'd even consider taking over him (especially at forward) is Toews.

I thought the entire subject matter itself was difficult to read. Like, I keep thinking it's a mirage or something.

I'm no lover of Sidney Crosby. At all. And he's the best player in the game, and it's really not that close. Sure, he has qualities about him I don't like. But the only player I'd even consider taking over him (especially at forward) is Toews.
- jmatchett383

+1

Giroux was also labeled a dominant player on the PK. When he's at best the 3rd best PK forward on the team, and more then likely the 4th best on the team. And he's not even close to the class of player that Couturier is on the PK.
- MJL

Couts had a stellar weekend. He is so fun to watch especially against Pitt.

Nice to see Read hitting the net.

A lot of them had great weekends, actually.
I thought LSchenn was very good. Simmonds of course.
Macdonald also. Even Vinnie looked better.

Only Downie who can't seem to get out of his down spiral right now.

I was listening to WIP this morning (no Angelo, and they were actually talking hockey) and caller called in asking if NBC is biased towards the Penguins. As an NBC man, Jones was obliged to say that there is little bias, although Ray Shero and Pierre are very close friends. Al Morganti then had one of the best quotes I've heard in a while (i may be slightly paraphrasing):

"NBC's sports motto is fair and balanced coverage which, in the case of Pierre McGuire, means doing a headstand on Sidney Crosby's ass."
- jmatchett383

I thought the entire subject matter itself was difficult to read. Like, I keep thinking it's a mirage or something.

I'm no lover of Sidney Crosby. At all. And he's the best player in the game, and it's really not that close. Sure, he has qualities about him I don't like. But the only player I'd even consider taking over him (especially at forward) is Toews.
- jmatchett383

Stamkos? I know his defense isn't great, but he's definitely in the conversation. I think he'll improve defensively.

Still, I don't see how anyone can say Giroux is better than Crosby though. And I love Giroux and hate Crosby.

Couts had a stellar weekend. He is so fun to watch especially against Pitt.

Nice to see Read hitting the net.

A lot of them had great weekends, actually.
I thought LSchenn was very good. Simmonds of course.
Macdonald also. Even Vinnie looked better.

Only Downie who can't seem to get out of his down spiral right now.
- Marc D

Downie had a very good game on Saturday, and I have to give him credit. Yesterday though, although Bortuzzo basically took 3 consecutive uncalled penalties on him, Downie has to keep his cool and either take it, or engage Bortuzzo and take someone with him.

Anyone else amazed that we just had a back-to-back with Pittsburgh where one game was a blowout and 1 game was as chippy as can be, and there were zero fights?

Stamkos? I know his defense isn't great, but he's definitely in the conversation. I think he'll improve defensively.

Still, I don't see how anyone can say Giroux is better than Crosby though. And I love Giroux and hate Crosby.
- PhillySportsGuy

I didn't pick Stamkos primarily because he's been injured most of the year. But if he's able to recover and return to from (we'll see how he does without St. Louis), then he's in the mix. But at this point, I'm taking Crosby.

- Streit2ThePoint

Megna, Gibbons, and Vitale taken out with the trash.

Downie had a very good game on Saturday, and I have to give him credit. Yesterday though, although Bortuzzo basically took 3 consecutive uncalled penalties on him, Downie has to keep his cool and either take it, or engage Bortuzzo and take someone with him.

Anyone else amazed that we just had a back-to-back with Pittsburgh where one game was a blowout and 1 game was as chippy as can be, and there were zero fights?
- jmatchett383

No. The Pens don't fight. They take headshots and start poop when the whistle blows. They only fight if the willing participate is a non-fighter. i.e. Timonen

No. The Pens don't fight. They take headshots and start poop when the whistle blows. They only fight if the willing participate is a non-fighter. i.e. Timonen
- PhillySportsGuy

It looked like Engelland was ready to go with Downie Saturday. Downie proved 2 things to me at that moment:

1. He's not suicidal
2. He's not into BDSM

I didn't pick Stamkos primarily because he's been injured most of the year. But if he's able to recover and return to from (we'll see how he does without St. Louis), then he's in the mix. But at this point, I'm taking Crosby.
- jmatchett383

Even when healthy, I would still take Crosby.

1. Crosby
2. Toews
3. Malkin
4. Stamkos
5. Giroux
6. Getzlaf
7. Matt Carle

It looked like Engelland was ready to go with Downie Saturday. Downie proved 2 things to me at that moment:

1. He's not suicidal
2. He's not into BDSM
- jmatchett383

Downie would have destroyed Engelland..... Shelley style!

Downie had a very good game on Saturday, and I have to give him credit. Yesterday though, although Bortuzzo basically took 3 consecutive uncalled penalties on him, Downie has to keep his cool and either take it, or engage Bortuzzo and take someone with him.

Anyone else amazed that we just had a back-to-back with Pittsburgh where one game was a blowout and 1 game was as chippy as can be, and there were zero fights?
- jmatchett383

The Flyers had very little reason to fight either day.
If the Flyers were getting blown out then I would expect a fight.

For the most part they did a good job keeping their cool.

It looked like Engelland was ready to go with Downie Saturday. Downie proved 2 things to me at that moment:

1. He's not suicidal
2. He's not into BDSM
- jmatchett383

My favorite part was when Hartnell buried a guy and Crosby came over like he was going to do poop. Thankfully, for him, Burtuzzo came over also.

Even when healthy, I would still take Crosby.

1. Crosby
2. Toews
3. Malkin
4. Stamkos
5. Giroux
6. Getzlaf
7. Matt Carle
- PhillySportsGuy

Listing Matt Carle so low on your list makes your list irrelevant.

Let me ask you a few serious questions though about your top 4.

Would you trade Giroux for Crosby?
Would you trade Giroux for Toews?
Would you trade Giroux for Malkin?
Would you trade Giroux for Stamkos?

It may make you re-evaluate, as there's one on that list I'd say no to (I think you know which one).

No. The Pens don't fight. They take headshots and start poop when the whistle blows. They only fight if the willing participate is a non-fighter. i.e. Timonen
- PhillySportsGuy

I'm still mad at Orpik. What a dik move.

No. The Pens don't fight. They take headshots and start poop when the whistle blows. They only fight if the willing participate is a non-fighter. i.e. Timonen
- PhillySportsGuy

I actually was very happy with the discipline showed by the team. You could tell they wanted the 4 pts big time. Very good start to this sched from hell. I also would start Mase Tuesday... maybe come back with Ray vs Dallas.

Listing Matt Carle so low on your list makes your list irrelevant.

Let me ask you a few serious questions though about your top 4.

Would you trade Giroux for Crosby?
Would you trade Giroux for Toews?
Would you trade Giroux for Malkin?
Would you trade Giroux for Stamkos?

It may make you re-evaluate, as there's one on that list I'd say no to (I think you know which one).
- jmatchett383

I still think Malkin would be great on a team that was 'his'. I feel playing with Crosby makes him coast a bit. If a team were completely reliant on him, I feel he'd really turn things up a notch.

You know, the debate is interesting, in this regard:

Sidney Crosby is the most prolific player in the game. If somebody said, "You need to win a scoring title," or "You need to take two average wingers and make them 25-35 goal scorers," then hey, OK, Sidney Crosby's your guy.

But I don't call him the best player in the game. Because of his character.

His maturity level isn't that of a great leader or captain. It never has been. And it's not just against Philadelphia. Look at Boston last year, when the Pens got rolled. His maturity level pales in comparison to some of the other elite players in this sport.

Is Crosby the most skilled, dynamic forward in the league? Sure. Yes.

But if you ask me who the first player I'd pick to win the Stanley Cup?

It wouldn't be Sidney Crosby. Because looking back at how the Pens lose, with him as captain...it's the same story, every time. Lack of composure. Lack of grit. Lack of will. Lack of leadership.

There are players who I'd take on a gameday roster before him, because the gap in skill can be mitigated by more character.

Downie would have destroyed Engelland..... Shelley style!


- PLindbergh31

I hope you get a chance to listen to an interview Shelley did with NHL radio this year.
I really have a lot of respect for him after hearing it.
He's had over 500 stitches in his face.
Great story teller and he truly loved the opportunity to play in the league.