the hits should flat out jst be punished and harshly. but fighting is just dumb... why would he fight and take himself out of the game for 5 minutes? He is the pens best pure sniper. fighting isnt cowardly, its selfish. Not to make Neal look like some sort of role model but he puts the team over himself when he doesn't fight... his rep takes a blow but the team is the better for it. All things being said... I wish the pens would Cooke Neal and give him the extra hours of video training and the warning that if he continues they bench him or trade him. Shero is more than capable of finding a replacement...
- ChrisMS

40 goal scorers don't grown on trees…They aren't going to get rid of Neal or play him any less. They have a shot at the Cup. Cooke was easily replaceable. Neal isn't.

When your team is down by 3 goals with less than 5 minutes to go and you've just throw 2 cheapshots on consecutive shifts, then I don't think he's hurting his team that much by fighting.

Look at a guy like Shea Weber. He threw that cheap shot against Zetterberg that same year. The next game, he was challenged by Bertuzzi and dropped the gloves, even though he was off the ice for 5 minutes. He knew it was coming, and decided he'd answer.
- jmatchett383

do they have more of a chance at a comeback with neal on the ice or without him?

I am not denying his all-world talent but Crosby is not a player that Flyers fans could embrace. Malkin has an edgy gritty attitude and is loaded with talent that Philly would embrace.
- Daveflyers36

I won't lie... It's always appeared that the Pens were literally given Corsby, albeit no definitive proof, everything surrounding the lottery seems sketchy.

-The Penguins were tanking hard financially
-The fanbase was almost literally non-existent
-Mario was still owed some serious coin from the league/Pens
-The Pens weren't even the worst team that year
-How can the Pens, a great storied franchise with some of the NHL all-time greats, go under? Would just kill the NHL....
-With the addition of Crosby, the NHL gets to avoid relocation and the Pens will eventually turn into a winning team, Cup contender
-Mario gets his money back, the NHL saves face...


Just my own take on it based on the information above, but I've always believed the league may have had something to do with it. Who knows for certainty though.
- Flyers_V88

The whole lottery, and I think every lottery since, just looks bad... Showing the actual ball drawing would be nice, but has zero drama for TV. You would see the first pick drawn first then turn off the tv. They'd rather have the opening of the envelope thing from 30-1 on TV.

But back to 2005, there were a ton of things against the Pens financially, and getting Crosby did save the franchise, at least in Pittsburgh.

I used to have a Bob McKenzie article bookmarked, but he gave some detail as to how the 2005 draft worked. The balls were drawn at the NHL offices, with reps from all 30 teams present, plus an accounting firm to verify. When we saw the lottery thing on TV, all of the GM's already knew the result. It was a TV event only.

Just the idea that 29 teams (and a legit accounting firm) would sign off on a fraudulent lottery and stay quiet about it for 10 years is impossible. I mean, there were some cash strapped owners in the league, what motivation would they have to allow Pittsburgh to benefit and not their own teams?

the hits should flat out jst be punished and harshly. but fighting is just dumb... why would he fight and take himself out of the game for 5 minutes? He is the pens best pure sniper. fighting isnt cowardly, its selfish. Not to make Neal look like some sort of role model but he puts the team over himself when he doesn't fight... his rep takes a blow but the team is the better for it. All things being said... I wish the pens would Cooke Neal and give him the extra hours of video training and the warning that if he continues they bench him or trade him. Shero is more than capable of finding a replacement...
- ChrisMS

Actually, taking cheapshots and leaving your teammates to either protect you (yes, an outdated concept) or to take retaliatory shots themselves is selfish.

do they have more of a chance at a comeback with neal on the ice or without him?
- ChrisMS

In that instance, with a Flyers' PP coming up, his presence on/off the ice had no effect on the game.

I actually am amazed that you're saying players shouldn't hold themselves accountable on the ice for throwing blatant cheapshots. Just amazed.

40 goal scorers don't grown on trees…They aren't going to get rid of Neal or play him any less. They have a shot at the Cup. Cooke was easily replaceable. Neal isn't.
- PhillySportsGuy

didnt say they would, but they should. Most Pittsburgh fans would agree... It worked wonders for Cooke. But Lemiuex has placed himself and the team at the forefront of advocating for fast paced, clean, lack of clutching/grabbing hockey and he has to follow through with his own team. The pens made a great example of Cooke... they need to put their money here their mouth is with Neal as well.

the hits should flat out jst be punished and harshly. but fighting is just dumb... why would he fight and take himself out of the game for 5 minutes? He is the pens best pure sniper. fighting isnt cowardly, its selfish. Not to make Neal look like some sort of role model but he puts the team over himself when he doesn't fight... his rep takes a blow but the team is the better for it. All things being said... I wish the pens would Cooke Neal and give him the extra hours of video training and the warning that if he continues they bench him or trade him. Shero is more than capable of finding a replacement...
- ChrisMS

Well, the current hockey culture basically says if you dish a monstrous hit, or dish a cheap shot, be prepared to answer the retribution of having to fight the other team's fight and/or agitator. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but the culture dictates that happen after the incident. It's a self-policing system.

The whole lottery, and I think every lottery since, just looks bad... Showing the actual ball drawing would be nice, but has zero drama for TV. You would see the first pick drawn first then turn off the tv. They'd rather have the opening of the envelope thing from 30-1 on TV.

But back to 2005, there were a ton of things against the Pens financially, and getting Crosby did save the franchise, at least in Pittsburgh.

I used to have a Bob McKenzie article bookmarked, but he gave some detail as to how the 2005 draft worked. The balls were drawn at the NHL offices, with reps from all 30 teams present, plus an accounting firm to verify. When we saw the lottery thing on TV, all of the GM's already knew the result. It was a TV event only.

Just the idea that 29 teams (and a legit accounting firm) would sign off on a fraudulent lottery and stay quiet about it for 10 years is impossible. I mean, there were some cash strapped owners in the league, what motivation would they have to allow Pittsburgh to benefit and not their own teams?
- rival22

I think more people were upset that the Pens still had great odds. It was unfair for teams to get the same odds without having to play a season. They should have altered it.

Imagine the Sabers having a 50/50 shot at the first pick this year and next year without having to play a season in between.

In that instance, with a Flyers' PP coming up, his presence on/off the ice had no effect on the game.

I actually am amazed that you're saying players shouldn't hold themselves accountable on the ice for throwing blatant cheapshots. Just amazed.
- jmatchett383

I've been a fan long enough to know that miracle comebacks happen and its the players and coaches duty and job to play to the whistle like they are trying to win at all times

I've been a fan long enough to know that miracle comebacks happen and its the players and coaches duty and job to play to the whistle like they are trying to win at all times
- ChrisMS

So you're saying that, if Claude Giroux throws a knee at Crosby and injures him for the season and, on the same shift, elbows Malkin and breaks his jaw, then he shouldn't fight anyone if challenged because he's good at hockey?

Actually, taking cheapshots and leaving your teammates to either protect you (yes, an outdated concept) or to take retaliatory shots themselves is selfish.
- BOSS_TWEED

guess its a damned if you do damned if you dont situation when it comes to hockey fights... when oh when is the game gonna grow up (when the league takes discipline seriously, thats when)

- Girouxsalem90

Sorry but me personally would rather have Malkin. I know I am the minority and I think its because Crosby is the better player and I konw that but I would just prefer to have Malkin.

guess its a damned if you do damned if you dont situation when it comes to hockey fights... when oh when is the game gonna grow up (when the league takes discipline seriously, thats when)
- ChrisMS

I completely agree with this!

I think more people were upset that the Pens still had great odds. It was unfair for teams to get the same odds without having to play a season. They should have altered it.

Imagine the Sabers having a 50/50 shot at the first pick this year and next year without having to play a season in between.
- PhillySportsGuy

THAT MY FRIEND! THAT... is a good point. One of the few valid arguments. To that I say... nah nah na boo boo stick your head in do-do

guess its a damned if you do damned if you dont situation when it comes to hockey fights... when oh when is the game gonna grow up (when the league takes discipline seriously, thats when)
- ChrisMS

Again, it's not a "damned if you do." Like I said, when Cooke "manned up" and fought Thornton, a few people actually applauded it a bit, because he answered the call on the ice instead of pulling a Claude Lemieux and turtling.

So you're saying that, if Claude Giroux throws a knee at Crosby and injures him for the season and, on the same shift, elbows Malkin and breaks his jaw, then he shouldn't fight anyone if challenged because he's good at hockey?
- jmatchett383

no... he should be strongly suspended but what does fighting accomplish. Kick him out of the game and suspend him 15-20 games per incident.

no... he should be strongly suspended but what does fighting accomplish. Kick him out of the game and suspend him 15-20 games per incident.
- ChrisMS

But that's the thing...Neal was given no penalty for "avoiding contact" by leaping elbow-first at an unsuspecting player, and then a minor for throwing an elbow to the back of Giroux's head. But I guess that good old 1-game suspension and 2-minute minor were fine, even though Couturier had to leave the game and Giroux was looking like he was concussed. Seems like he learned his lesson.

I've played hockey and been on the receiving and giving ends of some borderline hits. And whenever I threw a somewhat dirty or blatantly cheap hit, and was challenged, I always answered, even if the guy was twice my size.

I can tell you, after that happens once or twice, it's a better deterrent than a time out.

Again, it's not a "damned if you do." Like I said, when Cooke "manned up" and fought Thornton, a few people actually applauded it a bit, because he answered the call on the ice instead of pulling a Claude Lemieux and turtling.
- jmatchett383

Who applauded? The fans of the other team thats who. As a fan of the team cooke played for I would have been furious that a solid 2-3rd liner traded himself of the ice for a 4th liner.

no... he should be strongly suspended but what does fighting accomplish. Kick him out of the game and suspend him 15-20 games per incident.
- ChrisMS

I am not going to suggest going back to the 80s/90s or adding a roster spot for an enforcer, but you cannot deny that there were far fewer of these types of headshots back then. When the NHL put into place the instigator rule, the goal was to cut down on fighting in an effort to attract non-hockey fans to the sport. Unfortunately, players soon realized that they were rarely held accountable for their transgressions, which only resulted in more of them.

Who applauded? The fans of the other team thats who. As a fan of the team cooke played for I would have been furious that a solid 2-3rd liner traded himself of the ice for a 4th liner.
- ChrisMS

Okay. Enjoy the ice capades. Hope that you're happy when a player gets 2 minutes and a 5-game suspension when one of Crosby or Malkin gets kneed, and then runs away from Engelland next time they play.

But that's the thing...Neal was given no penalty for "avoiding contact" by leaping elbow-first at an unsuspecting player, and then a minor for throwing an elbow to the back of Giroux's head. But I guess that good old 1-game suspension and 2-minute minor were fine, even though Couturier had to leave the game and Giroux was looking like he was concussed. Seems like he learned his lesson.
- jmatchett383

never argued that Neal shouldn't have been supsended. Im all for both the league and the pens coming down on him hard. Neal isn't the only player that fits this bill though... many players in the league have avoided punishment... not excluding the flyers. I guess my point is you can't complain about Neal without first complaining about the discipline system in general

I think more people were upset that the Pens still had great odds. It was unfair for teams to get the same odds without having to play a season. They should have altered it.

Imagine the Sabers having a 50/50 shot at the first pick this year and next year without having to play a season in between.
- PhillySportsGuy

This is true... I think they would have had to have weighted it or limited the top few picks to non-playoff teams though.

I am not going to suggest going back to the 80s/90s or adding a roster spot for an enforcer, but you cannot deny that there were far fewer of these types of headshots back then. When the NHL put into place the instigator rule, the goal was to cut down on fighting in an effort to attract non-hockey fans to the sport. Unfortunately, players soon realized that they were rarely held accountable for their transgressions, which only resulted in more of them.
- BOSS_TWEED

NHL discpiline definately lagged behind the rule changes.... not just the instigator rle, but the removal of the red line and adding the trapizoid, also contributed

Okay. Enjoy the ice capades. Hope that you're happy when a player gets 2 minutes and a 5-game suspension when one of Crosby or Malkin gets kneed, and then runs away from Engelland next time they play.
- jmatchett383

Wouldn't bother me at all (if it came with the appropriate suspension, which these incidents don't, such is the problem)... the ice capades huh? well enjoy UFC. nothing like tuning in to watch a fast paced high skill game and being forced to watch 2 grown men act like children.