I always thought the plan all along was to get Pronger then begin to build a young defense through the draft. Pronger would keep them competitive until the young guys came up.

They got one playoff run with Pronger and gave up the equivalent of 4 first rounders for him.

Its just unlucky.
- PhillySportsGuy

He was 35 when they made that deal.

The equivalent of 4 first rounders, for a 35 year old player.

I don't either. The problem is cost. You're not going to replace Pronger (or 33 year old Timonen for that matter) without trading a lot of assets.

they could have targeted defense more in the draft, but I think they really expected after Laughton that they would get either Suter or Weber, and have Schenn to be a solid 3rd pair guy.

It's easy to rip them for not having a plan B, but not many guys of that level around
- Jsaquella

Definitely. However for all the talk of developing from within, and that being the most logical plan B I don't really sense that commitment.

In recent times just to avoid a long list we have picks thrown away for MacDonald who while a good player they could have had in FA for roughly the same price. Yet we throw away picks to get a fart at the playoffs. You buy-out two anchor contracts in the summer but sign two questionable players in Streit/LeCavalier who have a high degree of becoming the same anchors in the future.

I don't buy the notion that the cap wont even hold the Flyers back from making moves that they want to. I would have been perfectly fine missing the playoffs this year and really growing organically.

Anyway, its all just words. I'm enjoying the ride this year, but more so just by being able to see what the young kids can do under the bright lights.

about 15 games in it looked like he would have the last laugh, too not so much right now. jury is still out on L schenn for me.....D men take longer to D-velop and in a couple years jvr might be in the khl
- hogweed

Right, I still say all trades, even this one, take years to evaluate.

I always thought the plan all along was to get Pronger then begin to build a young defense through the draft. Pronger would keep them competitive until the young guys came up.

They got one playoff run with Pronger and gave up the equivalent of 4 first rounders for him.

Its just unlucky.
- PhillySportsGuy

I think so, too. Have Pronger and Kimmo anchor the blueline and build it up around them. Unfortunately, losing Pronger was a huge blow and basically lost assets and compounding it, they used more assets to bring in the Grossmanns, Kubinas, Schenn, etc.

He was 35 when they made that deal.

The equivalent of 4 first rounders, for a 35 year old player.
- puckhead17

See that trade, I'd still make to this day. Pronger's injury was a freak thing, and he brought them to a cup final. He was the best d-man by a mile.

Its why I would have been in favour of giving up Couturier and bSchenn for Weber who was even younger at the time. Patience I do believe in, but for some players you take the hit and build around that. Crazy thoughts I know.

about 15 games in it looked like he would have the last laugh, too not so much right now. jury is still out on L schenn for me.....D men take longer to D-velop and in a couple years jvr might be in the khl
- hogweed

My issue with that deal is they didn't get value for JvR. Schenn isn't horrible, and he can play well for stretches, he's just very inconsistent.

The bigger issue is, he really didn't fill a huge need when they added him. They needed a young defenseman and a righty shot, but they also needed more mobility and puck skill.

If Schenn can be consistent, he can be a solid 2nd pair thumper. That's not bad, but I'd rather have a 30 goal LW

marleau and thornton are still able to score what's vinny's excuse?
- 2Real

Hes too busy polishing his Cup ring

Definitely. However for all the talk of developing from within, and that being the most logical plan B I don't really sense that commitment.

In recent times just to avoid a long list we have picks thrown away for MacDonald who while a good player they could have had in FA for roughly the same price. Yet we throw away picks to get a fart at the playoffs. You buy-out two anchor contracts in the summer but sign two questionable players in Streit/LeCavalier who have a high degree of becoming the same anchors in the future.

I don't buy the notion that the cap wont even hold the Flyers back from making moves that they want to. I would have been perfectly fine missing the playoffs this year and really growing organically.

Anyway, its all just words. I'm enjoying the ride this year, but more so just by being able to see what the young kids can do under the bright lights.
- flyer_nutter

The desire to win is a double edged sword at times. It can lead to shortsighted decisions, and a lack of patience with young players.

It will be interesting to see what they do this summer. I do think that they are slowly coming around in some areas, like proper development, etc.

Take Laughton, for instance. A few years ago, he makes the team and doesn't go back to junior.

The desire to win is a double edged sword at times. It can lead to shortsighted decisions, and a lack of patience with young players.

It will be interesting to see what they do this summer. I do think that they are slowly coming around in some areas, like proper development, etc.

Take Laughton, for instance. A few years ago, he makes the team and doesn't go back to junior.
- Jsaquella

I really don't even know at this point. I really despise knowing they could be wasting the best years of Giroux and those kind of players don't come around every day.

They could, especially if Holmgren is shown the door make a splash with the draft in Philadelphia this year. Try to address that back end now, or just stay with the course. I would be okay with that myself, as painful as it is to say, with them being bad to build things right. To make the right decisions long term.

Although I do agree there is a middle ground, to properly evaluate talent that you may bring in through trade. I don't really have the confidence in the big boys to do that atm.

See that trade, I'd still make to this day. Pronger's injury was a freak thing, and he brought them to a cup final. He was the best d-man by a mile.

Its why I would have been in favour of giving up Couturier and bSchenn for Weber who was even younger at the time. Patience I do believe in, but for some players you take the hit and build around that. Crazy thoughts I know.
- flyer_nutter

Giving up 4 first rounders for a 35 year old defenseman, who granted, was an all star during his days in St. Louis, but there was no way he was going to get any better with age. The fact he was our best defenseman, (yes, he did have a great first season here), may speak more about the lack of depth that we have had.

Giving up the farm for a 27-28 year old Weber is no comparison, to a 35 year old guy.

Giving up 4 first rounders for a 35 year old defenseman, who granted, was an all star during his days in St. Louis, but there was no way he was going to get any better with age. The fact he was our best defenseman, (yes, he did have a great first season here), may speak more about the lack of depth that we have had.

Giving up the farm for a 27-28 year old Weber is no comparison, to a 35 year old guy.
- puckhead17

True enough. Timonen is by far still the best d-man on most nights here. Anyway this is getting a little too negative even for me, so I'm out.

Big game tomorrow, and I look forward to seeing what Simmonds, Raffl, Read, bSchenn, Couturier, Voracek and Giroux can bring!

True enough. Timonen is by far still the best d-man on most nights here. Anyway this is getting a little too negative even for me, so I'm out.

Big game tomorrow, and I look forward to seeing what Simmonds, Raffl, Read, bSchenn, Couturier, Voracek and Giroux can bring!
- flyer_nutter

I really don't even know at this point. I really despise knowing they could be wasting the best years of Giroux and those kind of players don't come around every day.

They could, especially if Holmgren is shown the door make a splash with the draft in Philadelphia this year. Try to address that back end now, or just stay with the course. I would be okay with that myself, as painful as it is to say, with them being bad to build things right. To make the right decisions long term.

Although I do agree there is a middle ground, to properly evaluate talent that you may bring in through trade. I don't really have the confidence in the big boys to do that atm.
- flyer_nutter

How does showing Holmgren the door allow them to make a splash? He's one of the most bold GM's in the NHL. He does a decent job drafting, and a very good job drafting in round one.

They're likely to try to address the back end, and with the cap going back up, i think we'll see more liberal trading.

Giving up 4 first rounders for a 35 year old defenseman, who granted, was an all star during his days in St. Louis, but there was no way he was going to get any better with age. The fact he was our best defenseman, (yes, he did have a great first season here), may speak more about the lack of depth that we have had.

Giving up the farm for a 27-28 year old Weber is no comparison, to a 35 year old guy.
- puckhead17

The trouble is, doing it one after the other, really saps the resource pool.

He was 35 when they made that deal.

The equivalent of 4 first rounders, for a 35 year old player.
- puckhead17

With a healthy Pronger, the Flyers would be a perennial Cup contender

With a healthy Pronger, the Flyers would be a perennial Cup contender
- PhillySportsGuy

Yeah, his last season, as a 37 year old, he was damn near a PPG and playing great.

That injury could have ended a 27 year old Weber's career as easy as it did the 37 year old Pronger's.

I think so, too. Have Pronger and Kimmo anchor the blueline and build it up around them. Unfortunately, losing Pronger was a huge blow and basically lost assets and compounding it, they used more assets to bring in the Grossmanns, Kubinas, Schenn, etc.
- Jsaquella

I believe Carle would still be a Flyer as well. There would have been no need to go after Suter.

The trouble is, doing it one after the other, really saps the resource pool.
- Jsaquella

Absolutely!

I understand why they took that chance, & made that splash, I just didn't agree with it at the time.

If they had made the splash for Pronger back in 2002, then yes, I agree.

"captain" shattenkirk at 19:59 of the first....blues up 2-0....i (frank)ing hate chicago

With a healthy Pronger, the Flyers would be a perennial Cup contender
- PhillySportsGuy

Then VL would be our 60 point a season, 2nd line center, (same logic).

Its just a risky move for a guy with a ton of miles on his body, we gave 4 first rounders, and he was 35, how many if he was 7 years younger?

Just saying.

Then VL would be our 60 point a season, 2nd line center, (same logic).

Just saying.
- puckhead17

Injuries aren't the only thing holding VL back from that…

Pronger was a generational defenseman who suffered a freak injury. VL has missed games in all of his last 4 seasons and had already showed real signs of slowing down. Pronger's only full year here was amazing. 55 points, +22 while matching up against the toughest opponents every night.

Yeah, his last season, as a 37 year old, he was damn near a PPG and playing great.

That injury could have ended a 27 year old Weber's career as easy as it did the 37 year old Pronger's.
- Jsaquella

I know. Flyer luck

Then VL would be our 60 point a season, 2nd line center, (same logic).

Its just a risky move for a guy with a ton of miles on his body, we gave 4 first rounders, and he was 35, how many if he was 7 years younger?

Just saying.
- puckhead17

Well, Nashville decided to match, rather than take the 4 1st rounders, so a lot more.

Then VL would be our 60 point a season, 2nd line center, (same logic).

Its just a risky move for a guy with a ton of miles on his body, we gave 4 first rounders, and he was 35, how many if he was 7 years younger?

Just saying.
- puckhead17

2 first rounders and two guys picked inthe the first round.....big difference

Injuries aren't the only thing holding VL back from that…

Pronger was a generational defenseman who suffered a freak injury. VL has missed games in all of his last 4 seasons and had already showed real signs of slowing down. Pronger's only full year here was amazing. 55 points, +22 while matching up against the toughest opponents every night.
- PhillySportsGuy

first bold, yet, here he is for 4 more seasons.

second bold, yes, I know what he brought to the table, I wasn't against him coming here, I just thought it was too much for a player turning 36 years old.
The move screamed our lack of commitment to building a defense, more so.