Tarasenko and a 1st.

PPG player in the playoffs, but hey you must be right
- forbetterorWORSE

Well, that doesn't change much of anything right now, does it?

Tarasenko and a 1st.
- AlfieFever

lol

I would say Shattenkirk would be worth it, alone, but then I checked the breakdown of his TOI and it seems as though he doesn't PK.

We need a steady Dman (I don't even care about offensive numbers) to insulate our crappy D - a steady Dman that can PK.

He did play more on the PK in past years, so maybe it's just a case of them having too many good Dmen. Who knows.

Ideally, Ottawa needs a guy to play with Methot, so Karlsson can slide down to the 3-4 hole.

Instead of trying to 'make' Karlsson a responsible shut down guy as well as offensive machine, we need to let him loose.

If you look at all the offensive greats in the past few decades, they have all played in the 3-4 pairing. Everyone loves to talk about Scott Neidermayer and compare him to Karlsson, but he was never tasked with playing in the 1-2 pair. He was in the 3-4 for the majority of his career. When you're playing 2nd/3rd lines more than 1st lines, you are naturally going to be on the ice when your team is on offense more.
- Charliebox

Neidermayer was the #1 D-man in ANA, even over Pronger.

This would be one of those deals where it would be silly to move Spezza. Boumeester isn't going to be signing a team friendly contract. One of the main reasons people want Spezza traded is because of his contract. Adding Boumeester just replaces that with a player of lesser value to the team.
- Gord_Wilson_2.0

first, you know that I'm with you in the we shouldn't trade Spezza front.....

my logic in this move would be that we are not giving up one of our young D that Murray believes will develop into a formidable force in a few years - which coincides with the end of Bowmeesters current contract

do you watch games in some sort of Bizzaro World alternate universe?

your going to take one of the top 5 d-men in the league and put him on the 2nd pairing.....

and who in your world was the 1-2 pairing when Neidermayer was playing???
- GadesnSens

Scott Stevens in New Jersey and Pronger in Anaheim. Neidermayer rarely played with those two.

I'm talking about shutdown pairing.

Look at a guy like Letang. Very comparable to Karlsson. You have Orpik (and a revolving door of guys) playing in the shutdown pair, with Letang in the 3-4 pair.

Up until this season, Letang still let Pens Dmen in TOI. It's just that on 5 on 5, he played a secondary (defensive) role.

Might as well shoot for the stars...

Spezza for StL 1st this year, Shattenkirk, and Rattie.

Honestly, if some combination of Anaheim/San Jose/Colorado end up flaming out, it might start a bidding war, and then all of a sudden that trade proposal up there doesn't sound too bad....
- the_terror

that's a huge haul for a guy with 1 year left on his contract.

Targets:

Active D: Bouwmeester, Shattenkirk

Active F: Oshie, Berglund, Paajarvi, Schwartz

Prospects: Rattie

Now, I have no idea which of those players StL might be willing to part with for Spezza, but I'm assuming you're only going to be able to get at most one of J-Bo, Shatten, Oshie, or Berg, plus one of Paajarvi, Schwartz, Rattie. And there's a good chance we have to throw in another asset to get that done.

I'd like to see:

Oshie, Schwartz, 2014 3rd

for

Spezza, Neil

hoping that the Blues want more veteran presence, and will be under the false impression that Neil will help a team win games.

Would also clear out most of the old guard in one swoop, let us rearrange the leadership in the room.

take what you guys sent for Bobby Ryan last year. take a little bit away from it.
that's what you'll get for JS. you're not getting a young, established NHLer like Jaden Schwarz or a guy like Shattenkirk. the market for a 30-year-old pending UFA with a history of back problems just won't be that strong.

The problem with Spezza is he hasn't been what he was for a couple of seasons now. I think it's going to be difficult for Murray to get what you think Spezza is worth. Sens fans still see the great player he was. Everyone else sees the decent (and injury riddled) player he is now.

Neidermayer was the #1 D-man in ANA, even over Pronger.
- duxcup07

TOI does not = 1-2 paring.

It's who you are out there against.

The first line of any team doesn't play more than half the overall forward mins. Karlsson can still get out there more than the 1-2 pair.. considering there are 3 other lines (and usually 2 that get a regular shift).

Tarasenko and a 1st.
- AlfieFever

Scott Stevens in New Jersey and Pronger in Anaheim. Neidermayer rarely played with those two.

I'm talking about shutdown pairing.

Look at a guy like Letang. Very comparable to Karlsson. You have Orpik (and a revolving door of guys) playing in the shutdown pair, with Letang in the 3-4 pair.

Up until this season, Letang still let Pens Dmen in TOI. It's just that on 5 on 5, he played a secondary (defensive) role.
- Charliebox

Dude, stop. Carlyle OFTEN paired Neidermayer and Pronger together, especially in the playoffs.

TOI does not = 1-2 paring.

It's who you are out there against.

The first line of any team doesn't play more than half the overall forward mins. Karlsson can still get out there more than the 1-2 pair.. considering there are 3 other lines (and usually 2 that get a regular shift).
- Charliebox

Yes it does.

Stop making up your own definitions.

If your point is we need guys to throw out against the other teams best so Karlsson gets easy opponents, fine, but all this pedantic poop is rilin me up.

It's the same deal with Subban (another Karlsson comparable).

Markov/Emelin are the 1-2 pair. Subban/Georges is the 3-4 pair.

Ottawa is asking too much of Karlsson to be in the 1-2 pair, and play all those hard mins against the other team's best players....

.... then go out and play the full 2 mins on almost every PP.

I like some Spez-culation.
- deadpoulet

You hab to say it didn't you

Yes it does.

Stop making up your own definitions.

If your point is we need guys to throw out against the other teams best so Karlsson gets easy opponents, fine, but all this pedantic poop is rilin me up.
- TommyDeVito

So Letang was in the 1-2 in Pitts all those years? And the criticism of him not playing the hard mins against the top players on other teams (when up for the Norris) was wrong?

Cause afterall, he had the most TOI/game.

Ok, got it.

TOI does not = 1-2 paring.

It's who you are out there against.

The first line of any team doesn't play more than half the overall forward mins. Karlsson can still get out there more than the 1-2 pair.. considering there are 3 other lines (and usually 2 that get a regular shift).
- Charliebox

You can't guarantee who you are going to go up against, especially on the road. All I know is that in the third period of close games during the '07 season, it seemed Scott was rarely off the ice. If that's your definition of a 3/4 defenseman then I can't argue with that.

that's a huge haul for a guy with 1 year left on his contract.

Targets:

Active D: Bouwmeester, Shattenkirk

Active F: Oshie, Berglund, Paajarvi, Schwartz

Prospects: Rattie

Now, I have no idea which of those players StL might be willing to part with for Spezza, but I'm assuming you're only going to be able to get at most one of J-Bo, Shatten, Oshie, or Berg, plus one of Paajarvi, Schwartz, Rattie. And there's a good chance we have to throw in another asset to get that done.

I'd like to see:

Oshie, Schwartz, 2014 3rd

for

Spezza, Neil

hoping that the Blues want more veteran presence, and will be under the false impression that Neil will help a team win games.

Would also clear out most of the old guard in one swoop, let us rearrange the leadership in the room.


- TommyDeVito

Don't see them trading Oshie. More likely be some the defence,

Also on the Neil veteran presence thing, they already traded for Ott, so I don't think that'll be soething they want.

that's a huge haul for a guy with 1 year left on his contract.

Targets:

Active D: Bouwmeester, Shattenkirk

Active F: Oshie, Berglund, Paajarvi, Schwartz

Prospects: Rattie

Now, I have no idea which of those players StL might be willing to part with for Spezza, but I'm assuming you're only going to be able to get at most one of J-Bo, Shatten, Oshie, or Berg, plus one of Paajarvi, Schwartz, Rattie. And there's a good chance we have to throw in another asset to get that done.

I'd like to see:

Oshie, Schwartz, 2014 3rd

for

Spezza, Neil

hoping that the Blues want more veteran presence, and will be under the false impression that Neil will help a team win games.

Would also clear out most of the old guard in one swoop, let us rearrange the leadership in the room.


- TommyDeVito

i don't think they'd move oshie straight up for spezza and neil, and certainly wouldnt' throw in schwartz.

i still think shattenkirk/rattie would be about right.

So Letang was in the 1-2 in Pitts all those years? And the criticism of him not playing the hard mins against the top players on other teams (when up for the Norris) was wrong?

Cause afterall, he had the most TOI/game.

Ok, got it.
- Charliebox

all WHAT years, Charlie?

Letang has only been the #1 in Pittsburgh for three seasons. Before that it was Gonchar.

And no, I never said it was wrong. I said it's not how you determine who your #1 defenseman is. Letang is(was) their #1 defenseman, and was criticized for not playing the best QoC compared to his fellow nominees.

Don't see them trading Oshie. More likely be some the defence,

Also on the Neil veteran presence thing, they already traded for Ott, so I don't think that'll be soething they want.
- david22

Ott = UFA though, he may walk.

i don't think they'd move oshie straight up for spezza and neil, and certainly wouldnt' throw in schwartz.

i still think shattenkirk/rattie would be about right.
- sensarmy_11

Why does everyone think StL would value Oshie more than Shattenkirk?

Defense is rarer in this league than a forward with size who scores 20G/60P a year.

Totally off base, Shattenkirk is way more valuable and they would likely not give him up for Spezza.

I hope they do, but its not likely.

I'd like to see:

Oshie, Schwartz, 2014 3rd

for

Spezza, Neil


- TommyDeVito

oh wow

oh wow
- Not_Yan

A man can dream, can't he?

all WHAT years, Charlie?

Letang has only been the #1 in Pittsburgh for three seasons. Before that it was Gonchar.

And no, I never said it was wrong. I said it's not how you determine who your #1 defenseman is. Letang is(was) their #1 defenseman, and was criticized for not playing the best QoC compared to his fellow nominees.
- TommyDeVito

Exactly, he didn't play in the FIRST pairing. Because of that, Letang was never the #1 defenseman in Pittsburgh. Just like Mike Green was never the #1 Dman in Washington.

Your #1 center plays against the other teams best Dmen.
Your teams best Dmen play against the other team's #1 line.

Ok, here's a question so I can further understand you.

When Ottawa had Redden and Chara, Chara/Phillips played together against the other team's best players. Redden/Rachunek played in the next pairing.

In 02/03 and 03/04 Redden had more ice time per game than Chara. Why? Power play time.

So you're telling me that Redden was the #1 Dman in Ottawa, then? Not Chara, who played the bulk of the mins against the other team's first lines.