One Wings fan proposed a trade on another site for Karlsson which I told him would never happen but just want to see what the reaction is from Sens fans.

Erik Karlsson for Tatar, Franzen, Mrazek, Kindl and 1st rounder while the Wings retain 1.25 million /yr from franzens contract. Thoughts?
- dcz28

No.

This is something I tried to explain to Sens fans last year when they were tossing out proposals for big names when we thought we had money:

No one in this league trades superstar players for depth other than one very specific situation: their contract is expiring and the team knows they won't pay what they want, or has better players behind them at the position.

Only one I ever remember was Thorton to SJ, and he basically was publicly unhappy with the organization at the time, and vice versa.

Even with that said - Franzen is done, Mrazek is an unknown, Kindl is a second pairing guy at best on a good team, and the first isn't that good a pick. Tatar is the only real valuable piece in that deal.

If the Sharks don't win the cup Big Joe is out, i think Spezza ends up in San Jose
- forbetterorWORSE

interesting scenario.

plus/minus is a worthless statistic I thought??
- EnzoD

Worthless as a descriptor for the defensive acuity of a NHL player, yes. Mainly because it's an individual statistic that tracks against a team effort.

Look, here's the thing. Being on the ice for a goal against doesn't necessarily indicate an individual hockey player as being a responsible party for the goal itself. The blog poster (Travis) spoke at length about the regression of both Anderson and Lehner this year, and about the fact that Karlsson was required to play on a pair that featured the human boat anchor known as Jared Cowen.

I'm not saying that Karlsson is ever going to be a master in his own zone. What I'm saying is that Karlsson doesn't have to be since he spends the bulk of his on-ice time with the puck on his stick in the opposition zone.

Case and point, check this out.

Karlsson +/- in games when Cowen was dressed: -15 in 68 games
Karlsson +/- in games when Cowen was scratched: 0 in 14 games

If you gave Karlsson a partner at the same caliber as Seabrook, that -15 wouldn't be there. And if you gave Keith a partner at the same caliber as Cowen, that +22 wouldn't be there either. How about that year when Ottawa found Karlsson a partner that would be considered reasonably passable in comparison? Methot on his best day is no Seabrook and Karlsson managed more points that year than Keith has even sniffed and did so while posting a +16.

There's no comparison. Erik Karlsson is still the best defenseman in the NHL. Give him a Seabrook caliber partner and he'll set records.

Worthless as a descriptor for the defensive acuity of a NHL player, yes. Mainly because it's an individual statistic that tracks against a team effort.

Look, here's the thing. Being on the ice for a goal against doesn't necessarily indicate an individual hockey player as being a responsible party for the goal itself. The blog poster (Travis) spoke at length about the regression of both Anderson and Lehner this year, and about the fact that Karlsson was required to play on a pair that featured the human boat anchor known as Jared Cowen.

I'm not saying that Karlsson is ever going to be a master in his own zone. What I'm saying is that Karlsson doesn't have to be since he spends the bulk of his on-ice time with the puck on his stick in the opposition zone.

Case and point, check this out.

Karlsson +/- in games when Cowen was dressed: -15 in 68 games
Karlsson +/- in games when Cowen was scratched: 0 in 14 games

If you gave Karlsson a partner at the same caliber as Seabrook, that -15 wouldn't be there. And if you gave Keith a partner at the same caliber as Cowen, that +22 wouldn't be there either. How about that year when Ottawa found Karlsson a partner that would be considered reasonably passable in comparison? Methot on his best day is no Seabrook and Karlsson managed more points that year than Keith has even sniffed and did so while posting a +16.

There's no comparison. Erik Karlsson is still the best defenseman in the NHL. Give him a Seabrook caliber partner and he'll set records.
- the_terror

This is what I tried to state yesterday's post. If only Boston took Redden. EK65 and Chara, sweet lord jeebus that would be unreal.

its a pretty simple statistic of goals scored vs goals allowed. I'd say it is a good indicator of a players 200ft game and most NHL evaluators would agree.
- EnzoD

Wrong. One of the least reliable stats as virtually all who know what they are talking about recognize.

Lol at the deep hockey knowledge demonstrated.

All that said, I guess the Sens will just have to keep this terrible, terrible player, Mr. Karlsson, as no other team would ever want him. Surely most "NHL evaluators" would agree.

No.

This is something I tried to explain to Sens fans last year when they were tossing out proposals for big names when we thought we had money:

No one in this league trades superstar players for depth other than one very specific situation: their contract is expiring and the team knows they won't pay what they want, or has better players behind them at the position.

Only one I ever remember was Thorton to SJ, and he basically was publicly unhappy with the organization at the time, and vice versa.

Even with that said - Franzen is done, Mrazek is an unknown, Kindl is a second pairing guy at best on a good team, and the first isn't that good a pick. Tatar is the only real valuable piece in that deal.
- TommyDeVito

There is also if the player asks to be traded like Heatley did. Then the team has to try and get the best deal possible.

Ottawa can't trade Karlsson right now...no way they could really justify it to the fans without massive backlash from the fans.

I don't think Franzen is done but I also don't think he has high value given his age, injury history and long term contract with recapture penalties. Mrazek isn't a known NHL regular yet but he has quality starter written all over him. I think if they finally give him a shot at the backup spot next season instead of signing another washed up or injury prone goalie he could steal the starting job from Howard and make him trade bait within 2 years. All he does is win and has the right mentality for a starter. Kindl is so so but some of that has to do with the mind games the coach plays with him. He can get scratched for an average game while a guy like Lashoff (that should be in the AHL) craps the bed and plays regularly because Babcock loves him for some weird reason. Babcock does make some really stupid decisions sometimes with how he uses certain players...but I guess all coaches do that and have their favorites that can do no wrong. 1st round pick is not very good since the Wings most likely would finish in the top half of the league. You are right that Tatar is the best most proven piece in that deal and that wouldn't be enough of a starting point and the Sens would likely want Nyquist instead of Tatar in a package to begin with.

There is also if the player asks to be traded like Heatley did. Then the team has to try and get the best deal possible.

Ottawa can't trade Karlsson right now...no way they could really justify it to the fans without massive backlash from the fans.

I don't think Franzen is done but I also don't think he has high value given his age, injury history and long term contract with recapture penalties. Mrazek isn't a known NHL regular yet but he has quality starter written all over him. I think if they finally give him a shot at the backup spot next season instead of signing another washed up or injury prone goalie he could steal the starting job from Howard and make him trade bait within 2 years. All he does is win and has the right mentality for a starter. Kindl is so so but some of that has to do with the mind games the coach plays with him. He can get scratched for an average game while a guy like Lashoff (that should be in the AHL) craps the bed and plays regularly because Babcock loves him for some weird reason. Babcock does make some really stupid decisions sometimes with how he uses certain players...but I guess all coaches do that and have their favorites that can do no wrong. 1st round pick is not very good since the Wings most likely would finish in the top half of the league. You are right that Tatar is the best most proven piece in that deal and that wouldn't be enough of a starting point and the Sens would likely want Nyquist instead of Tatar in a package to begin with.
- dcz28

neither one of those pieces, or even both of them, even get you to the table on a karlsson deal.

like i said, there isn't anything on detroit's roster, be it player/prospect/pick, that could go into a package to get karlsson.

there is zero point in even discussing what it would take, ottawa would want such a RIDICULOUSLY massive payment for him that no teams would or could match it.

neither one of those pieces, or even both of them, even get you to the table on a karlsson deal.

like i said, there isn't anything on detroit's roster, be it player/prospect/pick, that could go into a package to get karlsson.

there is zero point in even discussing what it would take, ottawa would want such a RIDICULOUSLY massive payment for him that no teams would or could match it.
- sensarmy_11

Talk of moving Karlsson is a full stop the minute someone says Karl...

He's Ottawa's franchise player, they will hopefully properly build around him this summer and get him a capable defenceman to play with him. My top choices are Edler, Ehrhoff and JBO. I also think there are guys available that could play on the 2nd pairing and take pressure off of Karlsson such as Letang, Myers, Martin and Shattenkirk.

Also, Ottawa is very thin on the back end and last season really showed that. Karlsson is a #1 on 28/30 teams int he league at this point in his career. Soon he will be more valuable on the ice than Chara or Sutter. I have faith that Cowen can pull it together and be a top 4 guy next season so long as he gets in the gym all summer and comes to camp ready to work, Weircioch is a good #5 d man, Ceci should be in the minors next year to develop but may be up still in a top 4 role. Methot will get another shot on Karlssons hip and Phillips and Gryba should not ever see the ice.

If we don't make any moves our D will be

Methot-Karlsson
Cowen-Ceci
Weircioch-Phillips
Boro

Ideally however it would be...

JBo-Karlsson
Methot- Ceci
Weircioch-Cowen
Phillips

Or

Methot-Karlsson
Letang-Ceci
Weircioch-Cowen
Phillips

About all this Spezza talk.

I can see a better than 50% chance that he stays. And, here are the reasons why.

1. Spezza makes $4M in salary but a $7M cap hit. Eugene will not want to miss out on NOT spending $3M to get to the cap floor. (I think this point unfortunately is such a strong factor that it keeps JS19 in Ottawa next season).

2. If Ottawa were to trade him then they will be looking for a solid return back. If I am Murray I try and swing for the fences. If the return is not solid then they should let Spezza play out next year and hope that the Spezza that showed up in the back half of this season is the guy that comes next season. If so they either try to extend him or deal him at the deadline if they can get a good price.

In any negotiation you ask for a lot first and eventually settle so don't kill me for these proposals, obviously they would not be the final offer.

a)

To STL: Spezza, Weircioch, Prince, 2015 2nd, 2016 3rd
To OTT: JBo, Tarasenko, PRV

b)

To COL: Spezza. Weircioch, 2015 1st
To OTT: O'Reilly, Barrie

c)

To TO: Spezza, Cowen
To OTT: Kadri, 2014 1st, Gardiner

d)

To NSH: Spezza, Weircioch
To OTT: Foresberg, Josi

e)

To ANA: Spezza (1/2 salary/cap hit)
To OTT: Etem, OTT 1st 2014, Lindholm

If the Sharks don't win the cup Big Joe is out, i think Spezza ends up in San Jose
- forbetterorWORSE

They JUST signed him and Marleau to extensions, and no doubt there are NTC/NMC in their so I don't think they move. If they lose it'll be MacLennan that goes and they will not resign Boyle. Maybe just maybe a younger player could be moved such as Coture but they would be doing a panick move if that happened and I don't think it will.

About all this Spezza talk.

I can see a better than 50% chance that he stays. And, here are the reasons why.

1. Spezza makes $4M in salary but a $7M cap hit. Eugene will not want to miss out on NOT spending $3M to get to the cap floor. (I think this point unfortunately is such a strong factor that it keeps JS19 in Ottawa next season).

2. If Ottawa were to trade him then they will be looking for a solid return back. If I am Murray I try and swing for the fences. If the return is not solid then they should let Spezza play out next year and hope that the Spezza that showed up in the back half of this season is the guy that comes next season. If so they either try to extend him or deal him at the deadline if they can get a good price.

In any negotiation you ask for a lot first and eventually settle so don't kill me for these proposals, obviously they would not be the final offer.

a)

To STL: Spezza, Weircioch, Prince, 2015 2nd, 2016 3rd
To OTT: JBo, Tarasenko, PRV

b)

To COL: Spezza. Weircioch, 2015 1st
To OTT: O'Reilly, Barrie

c)

To TO: Spezza, Cowen
To OTT: Kadri, 2014 1st, Gardiner

d)

To NSH: Spezza, Weircioch
To OTT: Foresberg, Josi

e)

To ANA: Spezza (1/2 salary/cap hit)
To OTT: Etem, OTT 1st 2014, Lindholm
- riceroni

All of these trades are very slanted in ottawa,s favor ,Spezza will get a pick prospect and maybe a bit more.Adding a defenseman that was a healthy scratch here most of the time ,really doesnt do much to add to the value

All of these trades are very slanted in ottawa,s favor ,Spezza will get a pick prospect and maybe a bit more.Adding a defenseman that was a healthy scratch here most of the time ,really doesnt do much to add to the value
- top shelf 15

That was my point. Murray has to start his negotiations from a strong point... Not a weak one... If he doesn't get what he wants then he should just hang onto Spezza.

That was my point. Murray has to start his negotiations from a strong point... Not a weak one... If he doesn't get what he wants then he should just hang onto Spezza.
- riceroni

Oh iam sure he will ask for the moon ,and will get a fair return .But as far as holding on to him ,i cant see him doing that either .If we keep him we have to resign him,too much risk otherwise

Oh iam sure he will ask for the moon ,and will get a fair return .But as far as holding on to him ,i cant see him doing that either .If we keep him we have to resign him,too much risk otherwise
- top shelf 15

I agree that getting something back would be useful but only if we are getting back something useful. I love Spatso at times but his proposal was crazy. Kadri I'd accept on my team willingly. He's a little sh1t that gets under the opponents skin but also has a ton of skill put the puck in the net. I have a lot of time for players that can talk the talk and walk the walk even if I hate him. But, Clarkson! Yikes, I would not touch that contract with a 10 ft pole. I actually don't have anything against the guy. He would be a great 3rd liner to replace Neil. But, I'd only try to sign him after the Leafs buy him out and only to a 3 year deal max around $2M per season.

I agree that getting something back would be useful but only if we are getting back something useful. I love Spatso at times but his proposal was crazy. Kadri I'd accept on my team willingly. He's a little sh1t that gets under the opponents skin but also has a ton of skill put the puck in the net. I have a lot of time for players that can talk the talk and walk the walk even if I hate him. But, Clarkson! Yikes, I would not touch that contract with a 10 ft pole. I actually don't have anything against the guy. He would be a great 3rd liner to replace Neil. But, I'd only try to sign him after the Leafs buy him out and only to a 3 year deal max around $2M per season.
- riceroni

Iam thinking close to the same as Spats ,If we could give the leafs one of our no cap hit buy outs ,and have them buy him out .I would take clarkson at say around 2.3 ish per for 3 years and Kadri for Spezza. Kadri is no center he looks like he would be a better fit at wing ,adding some decent grit onto the 3rd or 4th line in clarkson ,also helps.

Iam thinking close to the same as Spats ,If we could give the leafs one of our no cap hit buy outs ,and have them buy him out .I would take clarkson at say around 2.3 ish per for 3 years and Kadri for Spezza. Kadri is no center he looks like he would be a better fit at wing ,adding some decent grit onto the 3rd or 4th line in clarkson ,also helps.

- top shelf 15

Clarkson can't be bought out without cap penalties. 1, his contract was signed after the new CBA, and 2 OTT can not give out their cap free purchase.

Clarkson can't be bought out without cap penalties. 1, his contract was signed after the new CBA, and 2 OTT can not give out their cap free purchase.
- riceroni

Yep then iam with you that contract is an absolute horror,too bad we might have had a good hockey deal right in our own backyard

All of these trades are very slanted in ottawa,s favor ,Spezza will get a pick prospect and maybe a bit more.Adding a defenseman that was a healthy scratch here most of the time ,really doesnt do much to add to the value
- top shelf 15

I think a couple are slanted in our favour (the one to ana jumps to mind). i think the one to nashville is pretty good, and the one to colorado is also pretty good (especially considering that o'rielly is an RFA, and his qualifying offer HAS to be ridiculous based on the stupid offer sheet he signed)

the one to colorado is pretty good (considering o'rielly is an RFA), but other than that, i agree.
- sensarmy_11

I agree with the OP ,we need to ask for more than we what we will really take .But i feel some of those might just recieve a dial tone from the opposite GM

I agree with the OP ,we need to ask for more than we what we will really take .But i feel some of those might just recieve a dial tone from the opposite GM

- top shelf 15

yeah, the ones to Ana, Tor, and Stl are pretty bad. but the ones to colorado and nashville, IMO, are actually pretty good.

yeah, the ones to Ana, Tor, and Stl are pretty bad. but the ones to colorado and nashville, IMO, are actually pretty good.
- sensarmy_11

Colarado i cant see moving one of their decent young blueliners in Barrie they arent exactly flush with great young defenders .Nashville is interesting ,if their plan is to build around Weber and Jones then a Josi trade might be possible ,But iam not sure if they would be targeting a guy like Jason Spezza as the main piece back

I would say Shattenkirk would be worth it, alone, but then I checked the breakdown of his TOI and it seems as though he doesn't PK.

We need a steady Dman (I don't even care about offensive numbers) to insulate our crappy D - a steady Dman that can PK.

He did play more on the PK in past years, so maybe it's just a case of them having too many good Dmen. Who knows.

Ideally, Ottawa needs a guy to play with Methot, so Karlsson can slide down to the 3-4 hole.

Instead of trying to 'make' Karlsson a responsible shut down guy as well as offensive machine, we need to let him loose.

If you look at all the offensive greats in the past few decades, they have all played in the 3-4 pairing. Everyone loves to talk about Scott Neidermayer and compare him to Karlsson, but he was never tasked with playing in the 1-2 pair. He was in the 3-4 for the majority of his career. When you're playing 2nd/3rd lines more than 1st lines, you are naturally going to be on the ice when your team is on offense more.
- Charliebox

Shatterkink would be awesome, add a very solid prospect and I might be interested. Yeah, only thing is Karlsson is the cream of the crop...he won't be moved to 3rd pair D. That would be retarded. Don't forget what makes Karlsson useful is how well he logs ice time minutes.

Colarado i cant see moving one of their decent young blueliners in Barrie they arent exactly flush with great young defenders .Nashville is interesting ,if their plan is to build around Weber and Jones then a Josi trade might be possible ,But iam not sure if they would be targeting a guy like Jason Spezza as the main piece back

- top shelf 15

if the plan is to build around weber, then you'd have to think they'd want someone who's ready to go now. not a young kid who won't be ready for a couple of years.

not saying spezza is that guy, just seems like a better option then a young kid........if the plan is to build the team around weber.

Iam thinking close to the same as Spats ,If we could give the leafs one of our no cap hit buy outs ,and have them buy him out .I would take clarkson at say around 2.3 ish per for 3 years and Kadri for Spezza. Kadri is no center he looks like he would be a better fit at wing ,adding some decent grit onto the 3rd or 4th line in clarkson ,also helps.

- top shelf 15

To then have Spezza own the senators... i think it is pretty damn obvious that if Spezza gets traded it probably be out west, not in the eastern conference rival.

Kadri and Clarkson to Ottawa for Spezza makes huge sense all around. Clarkson is a Murray type player. He would be a good fit in Ottawa and regain a good deal of the form he had in NJ. Last year was just an off year with two suspension including the first 10 games. And, we all know the Murray attraction for Kadri. It goes without saying Spezza gives Toronto a star player and a number 1 center.

Making it work financially is pretty simple. Toronto is getting killed on the cap (Clarkson is a huge part of cap problem). But, the Leafs have boatloads of cash. Ottawa is in great shape on the cap but Melnyk is cash flow poor.

There are lots of way to move cash between franchises especially where they have overlapping territories. In the CBA, teams trading a player are allowed to pay a portion (I think it is up to half) of the salary. The Leafs and Sens could agree to 5 preseason Sens home games over the next 5 years (worth about $7.5m in extra cash flow to the Sens).

No I like this deal so I am going to stick with it.