You could watch the games, then read that -- or vice versa -- and see exactly what they're talking about.

It's not rocket science or voodoo magic. The guy gives up the blue line too easily! Period! Some things just are what they are.
- AllInForFlyers

He doesn't play an aggressive defensive game until it's below the circles, not arguable. That doesn't mean he's a bad player. He is doesn't do it with the frequency the article suggests, but a relevant point nonetheless.

You could watch the games, then read that -- or vice versa -- and see exactly what they're talking about.

It's not rocket science or voodoo magic. The guy gives up the blue line too easily! Period! Some things just are what they are.
- AllInForFlyers

Video review is now an advanced statistic, too.

I guess anything is that doesn't conform with the old school crowd.

Main issue? That over-analyzation of one particular player. To say that's one of the team's "main issues" is a bit much.

I would play defenders a bit timid if I was built as slightly as Mac. There's a reason they try to attack his side of the ice. That doesn't make him a bad player or the reason why were golfing right now (not that that's exactly whats being insinuated, but it was called a "main" issue").

The Flyers "main" issue, to me, is 5 on 5 play, and is more of a coaching issue than personnel issue. That being said, a different mix of personnel might make the coaches job easier.
- mochoson

The main issue with Andrew MacDonald, not the team.

And yes, letting skaters enter the zone with the puck is a huge issue. It's something you want to avoid. He's the worst on the team in that regard and the reason why his advanced stats are so bad. Yes, he's a good defender once the puck is in the zone. He positions himself well around the net and blocks shots. He can clear the zone well, too. But if he didn't allow so many skaters to enter the zone with possession, he (and the team) wouldn't be "defending" so much.

People have tracked zone entries for all Flyers defensemen this year for all 82 games. This is entails which side of the ice was attacked, the defenseman on that side, and how that player gained entry.

This is a good overview and gives still shots of the main issue that is hurting MacDonald (and the Flyers): http://www.broadstreethoc...enseman-neutral-zone-play

I don't see how someone can watch the game and claim it's a team (and not an individual) issue, but to each their own.
- bradleyc4

That was very interesting, I will definitely be paying attention to that once the season starts. The article does hit on the fact that sometimes the eye test and the stat test don't jibe. As is the case here.

Even in some of those examples to me Mac looks like he is a good spot even if he is backing in too much.

4 decade Cup drought, yet they all poop rainbows. Interesting concept.
- PLindbergh31

You're really fishing today

Video review is now an advanced statistic, too.

I guess anything is that doesn't conform with the old school crowd.
- bradleyc4

i harken back to the days where i had to listen to games via morse code. tracking zone entries was a real female dog. and naysayers would contend that you couldn't gather the same thing from just listening to the clicks.

The main issue with Andrew MacDonald, not the team.

And yes, letting skaters enter the zone with the puck is a huge issue. It's something you want to avoid. He's the worst on the team in that regard and the reason why his advanced stats are so bad. Yes, he's a good defender once the puck is in the zone. He positions himself well around the net and blocks shots. He can clear the zone well, too. But if he didn't allow so many skaters to enter the zone with possession, he (and the team) wouldn't be "defending" so much.
- bradleyc4

Like I said, seems like a little bit to much over analyzation of one player who was recently traded to a new team.

I'll save judgement until about the All Star Break next year for a better sample size.

People have tracked zone entries for all Flyers defensemen this year for all 82 games. This is entails which side of the ice was attacked, the defenseman on that side, and how that player gained entry.

This is a good overview and gives still shots of the main issue that is hurting MacDonald (and the Flyers): http://www.broadstreethoc...enseman-neutral-zone-play

I don't see how someone can watch the game and claim it's a team (and not an individual) issue, but to each their own.
- bradleyc4

I assume you watched the Ranger/Flyers playoff series? The Ranger all series long used stretch passes, and long cross ice passes against the Flyers. Due to a lack of neutral zone presence and poor gap control. I don't see how someone can watch that series, and conclude that it was an individual player issue, and not a team wide issue.

Like I said, seems like a little bit to much over analyzation of one player who was recently traded to a new team.

I'll save judgement until about the All Star Break next year for a better sample size.
- mochoson

Feel free to draw your own conclusions, as other have. But he had the same issue with the Islanders.

That was very interesting, I will definitely be paying attention to that once the season starts. The article does hit on the fact that sometimes the eye test and the stat test don't jibe. As is the case here.

Even in some of those examples to me Mac looks like he is a good spot even if he is backing in too much.
- MBFlyerfan

I feel like he can improve in that area too. Its not like he's slow and is constantly getting beat wide. He has the skill and agility to challenge a little more often.

That was very interesting, I will definitely be paying attention to that once the season starts. The article does hit on the fact that sometimes the eye test and the stat test don't jibe. As is the case here.

Even in some of those examples to me Mac looks like he is a good spot even if he is backing in too much.
- MBFlyerfan

Here's the full season numbers and more on how they score the data:
http://www.sbnation.com/n...tats-zone-entries-defense


I'm hesitant to condemn AMac on the numbers alone yet... too little data on him post-trade compared to the other guys. If he keeps looking like this, however, I'll be the first to bring the nails and hammer to his funeral.

Feel free to draw your own conclusions, as other have. But he had the same issue with the Islanders.
- bradleyc4

It was the Islanders. That's not an issue there. Them having anyone back to play any kind of defense period was welcomed

I assume you watched the Ranger/Flyers playoff series? The Ranger all series long used stretch passes, and long cross ice passes against the Flyers. Due to a lack of neutral zone presence and poor gap control. I don't see how someone can watch that series, and conclude that it was an individual player issue, and not a team wide issue.
- MJL

I don't think we're talking about the same issue.

The Flyers, as a team, have a trouble with overall gap control.

Andrew MacDonald, as an individual, allows too many skaters to enter the zone with possession, because of his poor individual gap control.

If you view them for one game, it can be misleading, but over the course of full seasons or careers, it becomes more reliable. If Mac's zone entry stats are continually worse than all other players, they have some merit. You can't just say "well, the team doesn't back check hard when he's on the ice."
- PhillySportsGuy

The only merit you have there is that numbers attributed to MacDonald in the situations he plays with, are worse then numbers attributed to other players in different situations. And a lot of it is false data. That's all it says. The fallacy is that can be directly attributed to MacDonald. It cannot do that.

The main issue with Andrew MacDonald, not the team.

And yes, letting skaters enter the zone with the puck is a huge issue. It's something you want to avoid. He's the worst on the team in that regard and the reason why his advanced stats are so bad. Yes, he's a good defender once the puck is in the zone. He positions himself well around the net and blocks shots. He can clear the zone well, too. But if he didn't allow so many skaters to enter the zone with possession, he (and the team) wouldn't be "defending" so much.
- bradleyc4

One thing I also notice in the examples, albeit a very small sample, is that the forwards are behind the third attacking player for the Mac examples while in the Coburn example there is a forward back checking ahead of the third attacking player.

Like has been said previously, the stats have merit. But I will also give my own eye test just as much merit when reaching conclusions without discounting either sides merit.

The main issue with Andrew MacDonald, not the team.

And yes, letting skaters enter the zone with the puck is a huge issue. It's something you want to avoid. He's the worst on the team in that regard and the reason why his advanced stats are so bad. Yes, he's a good defender once the puck is in the zone. He positions himself well around the net and blocks shots. He can clear the zone well, too. But if he didn't allow so many skaters to enter the zone with possession, he (and the team) wouldn't be "defending" so much.
- bradleyc4

I don't even understand how this is argued, for those who simply watched the Rangers series.

Coburn and Schenn defend the blue line. MacDonald and Gill concede it. Timonen concedes it more than Streit, but both pick their spots and will defend it, depending on what they're seeing. I didn't see enough of Gus to get a feel for how he plays it.

That's what I saw. It's OK to say it!

i harken back to the days where i had to listen to games via morse code. tracking zone entries was a real female dog. and naysayers would contend that you couldn't gather the same thing from just listening to the clicks.
- wilsonecho91

back in the 80s, it sure felt like morse code trying to watch a goddamn flyers game once they went off 29 and we didn't get prism. g'd that made me mad.

I don't think we're talking about the same issue.

The Flyers, as a team, have a trouble with overall gap control.

Andrew MacDonald, as an individual, allows too many skaters to enter the zone with possession, because of his poor individual gap control.
- bradleyc4

Those two issues cannot be separated. A defenseman's ability to step up and deny zone entry relies on the support he has from his teammates, as well as his own play. It's a team game.

And a lot of it is false data.
- MJL

Please explain fully, in a scientific manner that we can all understand, thanks.

One thing I also notice in the examples, albeit a very small sample, is that the forwards are behind the third attacking player for the Mac examples while in the Coburn example there is a forward back checking ahead of the third attacking player.

Like has been said previously, the stats have merit. But I will also give my own eye test just as much merit when reaching conclusions without discounting either sides merit.
- MBFlyerfan

My favorite is the part in that article where it says...

"To be fair, this was a 3 on 2 (re: why Mac isn't being more aggressive)"

.....no poop

Those two issues cannot be separated. A defenseman's ability to step up and deny zone entry relies on the support he has from his teammates, as well as his own play. It's a team game.
- MJL

Smartest post I've seen all day. Not enough people have actually played the sport in here and it's blatantly obvious.

That's what I saw. It's OK to say it!
- AllInForFlyers

No it's not... GTFO.

The only merit you have there is that numbers attributed to MacDonald in the situations he plays with, are worse then numbers attributed to other players in different situations. And a lot of it is false data. That's all it says. The fallacy is that can be directly attributed to MacDonald. It cannot do that.
- MJL

Based on what you're saying, no stat is relevant. Every situation is different on every play.

Those two issues cannot be separated. A defenseman's ability to step up and deny zone entry relies on the support he has from his teammates, as well as his own play. It's a team game.
- MJL

why can't a dman step up at the line regardless of what anyone else is doing, whether he has support or not? or you going to tell me that it's purely and completely a function of the other? there was never any support from anyone, anywhere, so he always has to cave over the line?

No it's not... GTFO.
- Tomahawk

It's just ridiculous that you can't even say what you saw without it turning into 26 pages of, "no, you didn't."