The main issue with Andrew MacDonald, not the team.

And yes, letting skaters enter the zone with the puck is a huge issue. It's something you want to avoid. He's the worst on the team in that regard and the reason why his advanced stats are so bad. Yes, he's a good defender once the puck is in the zone. He positions himself well around the net and blocks shots. He can clear the zone well, too. But if he didn't allow so many skaters to enter the zone with possession, he (and the team) wouldn't be "defending" so much.
- bradleyc4

All about context. The biggest reason why his advanced stats were poor was because of how he was used by the Islanders, and to an extent by the Flyers. he was over played against top competition, and used in a role he wasn't best suited for.
And a perfect example is put MacDonald on the Bruins. I bet his advnaced stats look quite different. This is another classic example of advanced stats being used incorrectly, and out of context. They cannot be used to rate an individual player. They can only tell you what happened on the ice, not why it happened.

back in the 80s, it sure felt like morse code trying to watch a goddamn flyers game once they went off 29 and we didn't get prism. g'd that made me mad.
- hammarby31

yes, i recall

Smartest post I've seen all day. Not enough people have actually played the sport in here and it's blatantly obvious.
- mochoson

Ah yes. The old "you haven't played the sport, so you can't possibly understand it" routine.

Only uttered by truly the bottom of the food chain types of people.

All about context. The biggest reason why his advanced stats were poor was because of how he was used by the Islanders, and to an extent by the Flyers. he was over played against top competition, and used in a role he wasn't best suited for.
And a perfect example is put MacDonald on the Bruins. I bet his advnaced stats look quite different. This is another classic example of advanced stats being used incorrectly, and out of context. They cannot be used to rate an individual player. They can only tell you what happened on the ice, not why it happened.
- MJL

The Bruins wouldn't be dumb enough to insert Andrew MacDonald into their line-up.

Ah yes. The old "you haven't played the sport, so you can't possibly understand it" routine.

Only uttered by truly the bottom of the food chain types of people.
- bradleyc4

Scotty Bowman never played an NHL game but somehow managed to do alright.

yes, i recall


- wilsonecho91

i knew you'd post that.

Ah yes. The old "you haven't played the sport, so you can't possibly understand it" routine.

Only uttered by truly the bottom of the food chain types of people.
- bradleyc4

Don't let stuff like that bother you; those are the same people who will tell you that "once Lecavalier gets his feet moving, his speed is fine," without acknowledging the obvious that getting your feet moving is part of it.

Don't let stuff like that bother you; those are the same people who will tell you that "once Lecavalier gets his feet moving, his speed is fine," without acknowledging the obvious that getting your feet moving is part of it.
- AllInForFlyers

and that he has to be on the right line, with the right players in the right situation.

Has a winger ever won the Selke?
- PhillySportsGuy

Bob Gainey
Craig Ramsey
Jere Lehtinen

Sorry if this is leight

The Bruins wouldn't be dumb enough to insert Andrew MacDonald into their line-up.
- bradleyc4

I dont think he fully understands the difference between advanced stats and regular stats.

Bob Gainey
Craig Ramsey
Jere Lehtinen

Sorry if this is leight
- BiggE

You were the first to mention these guys.

and that he has to be on the right line, with the right players in the right situation.
- hammarby31

EXACTLY

I dont think he fully understands the difference between advanced stats and regular stats.
- PhillySportsGuy

i like remedial stats

Please explain fully, in a scientific manner that we can all understand, thanks.
- Tomahawk

In terms of advanced stats, it's easy. Same issue as +/-. A defenseman can play his check and his position perfectly. Other players on the ice can turn the puck over, or blow a defensive assignment, leading to a number of shots against. That defenseman leaves the ice with a negative corsi against number for that shift, when he played his position perfectly on the shift. In the same way that a player can get a negative for being on the ice for a goal against when he had nothing to do with it. It's false data.
Same thing for a zone entry. A defenseman is faced with an attacker with speed with no neutral zone presence, in an outmanned situation, with no backchecking pressure from the forwards. He is forced to back up and give up the zone. It results in false data and a nagative towards that player.
It's the fatal flaw of all advnaced stats. It may be better then what was used previously. But it cannot isolate one player from the ice in a team game, and assign a result to that player, and only that player. It is impossible.
Advanced stats are fatally flawed in terms of rating a player. They cannot, and should not be used to rate how good a player is.

I dont think he fully understands the difference between advanced stats and regular stats.
- PhillySportsGuy

There is no difference. That's the point. They're all stats.

Some choose to count and use everything at our disposal.

Some choose to trust their eyes.

(hint: there is nothing more deceiving than the human eye and brain)

Ah yes. The old "you haven't played the sport, so you can't possibly understand it" routine.

Only uttered by truly the bottom of the food chain types of people.
- bradleyc4

generally i agree this is a silly assertion, except when it comes to goaltending. people who have never played the position, certainly not at a high level, often have no (frank)ing idea what they're talking about. they just don't.

You were the first to mention these guys.
- PhillySportsGuy

Old age has its benefits!

generally i agree this is a silly assertion, except when it comes to goaltending. people who have never played the position, certainly not at a high level, often have no (frank)ing idea what they're talking about. they just don't.
- hammarby31

This is coming from a goaltender. Hmmm....

The Bruins wouldn't be dumb enough to insert Andrew MacDonald into their line-up.
- bradleyc4

MacDonald is every bit as good as a number of Bruins defenseman. But you're on record as stating that MacDonald is a 3rd pair defenseman.

generally i agree this is a silly assertion, except when it comes to goaltending. people who have never played the position, certainly not at a high level, often have no (frank)ing idea what they're talking about. they just don't.
- hammarby31

Thats true
In general people who have played hockey at a competitive level do have a better understanding of the nuances of the game.

generally i agree this is a silly assertion, except when it comes to goaltending. people who have never played the position, certainly not at a high level, often have no (frank)ing idea what they're talking about. they just don't.
- hammarby31

And I'm totally fine with that -- stuff like technical skill, detailed systems play, is hardly ever something I talk about, personally.

But for whatever reason, this is one place where a player's weaknesses are...not.

I've never seen anything like it. If you say the wrong person is slow here, or doesn't pass well, or doesn't defend well...look where we are.

Thats true
In general people who have played hockey at a competitive level do have a better understanding of the nuances of the game.
- BiggE

It doesn't mean that they're better at analyzing the game.

why can't a dman step up at the line regardless of what anyone else is doing, whether he has support or not? or you going to tell me that it's purely and completely a function of the other? there was never any support from anyone, anywhere, so he always has to cave over the line?
- hammarby31

A defensman can certainly take that risk. And if he breaks up the play, he's a hero. But if the puck is chipped past him, it's a 2 on 1, and he's a goat. It's a read and react. Most defenseman, will read the play, and base his actions on the situation. No back pressure from the forwards, most defenseman will back in and concede the blueline.

It doesn't mean that they're better at analyzing the game.
- bradleyc4

Watching the game with the knowledge of what his going on out there, will always give a more accurate analysis, then using advanced stats in poor context.

Smartest post I've seen all day. Not enough people have actually played the sport in here and it's blatantly obvious.
- mochoson

Jeez, I'm hesitant to jump in because I thought everydody here coached and played. My only credentials are being a fan for 45 years and season ticket holder for 34 of them. I don't follow as closely as I used to but I really rely on Bill for the straight dope and all kidding aside appreciate the knowledege of most posters. Although I don't care for the peeing contests that occasionally erupt.