- flyer_nutter

The nickname you gave him, Wheels, and the picture you post are te most accurate things said about Lecavalier at this stage of his career

Exactly -- that is,what I meant. When a guy like Hatcher, who is not a bad person, has character, has size and strength...those things are fine in November against bad teams.

In May, against well-coached teams with speed and skill, you have to skate. It isn't rocket science. You can't lose races to 50-50 pucks. And because you can't interfere with players anymore, there is no hiding players who can't skate.

Slow players back in the day could hook guys, pull them back and slingshot themselves. If you can't do,that, and can't play defense, you are a liabilty
- AllInForFlyers

Hatcher was also effective. His role didn't require him to be a good skater or to skate fast. The role that Berube wants Lecavalier to play requires better skating and two way play.

Even in today's game, slower players can be effective if used properly...especially defensemen. Zdeno Chara. Willie Mitchell.

They let him go that long because he was still effective. Vinny hasn't been effective. That's sort of a huge difference.
- Jsaquella

Lecavalier just scored 20 goals during this past season. That's being effective, whether you choose to ignore this or not. Hatcher was limited by skating speed and was once beaten pretty badly by Maxim Afinogenov as our friend AllInForFlyers has just pointed out. Hatcher was also a minus 24 during the season we all wanna forget. Hatcher was as limited, if not more then Nick Grossmann who you think so highly of.

Not sure. I'm not a doctor. I do know that bones can heal without surgery, but seeing as how I don't know the exact injury Lecavalier suffered, I can't say.

However, I do know he was medically cleared and stated that the back injury was not a factor in his poor play down the stretch or in the playoffs.

Going to have to go with the doctors who cleared him to play, and with the players who said the back didn't affect him.
- Jsaquella

I should have been more clear. My fault. How long did your bones take to heal? You've had the same issue three times, right?

- flyer_nutter

Lecavalier just scored 20 goals during this past season. That's being effective, whether you choose to ignore this or not. Hatcher was limited by skating speed and was once beaten pretty badly by Maxim Afinogenov as our friend AllInForFlyers has just pointed out. Hatcher was also a minus 24 during the season we all wanna forget. Hatcher was as limited, if not more then Nick Grossmann who you think so highly of.
- SuperSchennBros

He managed to score goals. There's more to the sport than scoring goals, though. I'm not discounting his production. I'm weighing it against his overall poor performance. Lecavalier saw the performance of every line he was on drop. In terms of possession, shots, chances, production, you name it. It went on all season long.

Yes, Hatcher had a -24 on a horrible team in 2006-07. In 2007-08, when the team was better, Hatcher had 2 goals and 5 assists in 44 games and was a +4.

In other words, despite missing almost 40 games, Hatcher was effective when he played. Stevens used a different system and had better two way forwards, outside of Danny Briere, which helped Hatcher's effectiveness.

Lecavalier had 20 goals. He was also -16(if we're going to use +/-). The Flyers as a team got outshot 2 to 1 when he was on the ice. He was ineffective, outside of scoring goals and to be honest, he was streaky in that regard.

I should have been more clear. My fault. How long did your bones take to heal? You've had the same issue three times, right?
- SuperSchennBros

Nope, Broken wrist, broken nose and broken finger. The only one I missed time playing a sport with was the wrist, because it was baseball. Played football and hockey through the other two.

They all healed fully within 6-8 weeks.

Again, Lecavalier was cleared by qualified medical doctors and stated himself that the injury did not affect his play down the stretch & in playoffs. You're trying to prove something that can't be proven.

He managed to score goals. There's more to the sport than scoring goals, though. I'm not discounting his production. I'm weighing it against his overall poor performance. Lecavalier saw the performance of every line he was on drop. In terms of possession, shots, chances, production, you name it. It went on all season long.

Yes, Hatcher had a -24 on a horrible team in 2006-07. In 2007-08, when the team was better, Hatcher had 2 goals and 5 assists in 44 games and was a +4.

In other words, despite missing almost 40 games, Hatcher was effective when he played. Stevens used a different system and had better two way forwards, outside of Danny Briere, which helped Hatcher's effectiveness.

Lecavalier had 20 goals. He was also -16(if we're going to use +/-). The Flyers as a team got outshot 2 to 1 when he was on the ice. He was ineffective, outside of scoring goals and to be honest, he was streaky in that regard.
- Jsaquella

There is more to scoring goals in the league but it's also the object of the game and he can do it maybe even better then anyone on the team when healthy.

Nope, Broken wrist, broken nose and broken finger. The only one I missed time playing a sport with was the wrist, because it was baseball. Played football and hockey through the other two.

They all healed fully within 6-8 weeks.

Again, Lecavalier was cleared by qualified medical doctors and stated himself that the injury did not affect his play down the stretch & in playoffs. You're trying to prove something that can't be proven.
- Jsaquella

I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm perfectly fine with Lecavalier being a Flyer because he's still a weapon. You're trying to change my mind for whatever reason.

There is more to scoring goals in the league but it's also the object of the game and he can do it maybe even better then anyone on the team when healthy.
- SuperSchennBros

He was one of 7 twenty goal scorers on the team. They don't need another twenty goal scorer when he's a massive liability in other areas. That's why things have to be weighed, you can't cherry pick one stat and say the guy was an effective player.

You have to look at every aspect of the guy's play, look at how he fits the dynamic, can he be effective in the role he's likely to be asked to play and can he be expected to stay effective over the long haul.

A better two way player may have helped the possession game, and lead to more scoring chances and made Schenn & Simmonds more effective players and the team overall a better team, especially at 5 on 5.

that's how they lost to the Rangers. The 20 goal scoring Lecavalier was absolutely ineffective and got buried back on the 4th line and saw less ice time than Michael Raffl, Jason Akeson and everyone else not named Zac Rinaldo and Adam Hall.

I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm perfectly fine with Lecavalier being a Flyer because he's still a weapon. You're trying to change my mind for whatever reason.
- SuperSchennBros

I'm trying to show how your argument isn't logical. Sure he can still be a weapon.

The bigger question is, would a guy who fits in better make the overall team more effective?

Alexander Ovechkin scored 51 goals. He was a massive weapon for the Caps. Did he make them a better team? It's not about being a weapon. it's about making the overall team better. If the goal is the Stanley Cup, then you need to make the team better. Lecavalier scoring 20 and being on the ice for 36 against doesn't make the team better.

He was one of 7 twenty goal scorers on the team. They don't need another twenty goal scorer when he's a massive liability in other areas. That's why things have to be weighed, you can't cherry pick one stat and say the guy was an effective player.

You have to look at every aspect of the guy's play, look at how he fits the dynamic, can he be effective in the role he's likely to be asked to play and can he be expected to stay effective over the long haul.

A better two way player may have helped the possession game, and lead to more scoring chances and made Schenn & Simmonds more effective players and the team overall a better team, especially at 5 on 5.

that's how they lost to the Rangers. The 20 goal scoring Lecavalier was absolutely ineffective and got buried back on the 4th line and saw less ice time than Michael Raffl, Jason Akeson and everyone else not named Zac Rinaldo and Adam Hall.
- Jsaquella

Sure I can cherry pick one stat. I can pretty much do whatever I want.

We had seven 20 goal scorers this season and due to the situation of Lecavalier's deal, we might have seven next season.

Your argument is Lecavlier isn't not very good defensively and I could throw in that he's injury prone. You haven't used that excuse but I'll throw you and bone and add to your point for one second. Now I'll respond with, what else is new? What's been different from any of this before we signed him? He's never been good defensively, he's been injury prone the last few years and he's always been an offensive weapon. So What's changed? Brayden Schenn was on the team for two seasons before picking up Lecavalier.

I'll say again and again, I'm fine with him being here. I believe there can be a fit but it's up to the coach to stop moving Brayden Schenn around. This is up to Berube to do. There was a certain point at the end of the season where Schenn was moved to left wing on the second line to have Raffl center Schenn and Simmonds. So who's gonna center that second line, Schenn, Lecaalier....or Raffl??

I'm trying to show how your argument isn't logical. Sure he can still be a weapon.

The bigger question is, would a guy who fits in better make the overall team more effective?

Alexander Ovechkin scored 51 goals. He was a massive weapon for the Caps. Did he make them a better team? It's not about being a weapon. it's about making the overall team better. If the goal is the Stanley Cup, then you need to make the team better. Lecavalier scoring 20 and being on the ice for 36 against doesn't make the team better.
- Jsaquella

My argument is logical because Lecavalier's game didn't magically change after signing on the dotted line that brought him here. Neither did the make of the team very much. Yes Berube has made them slightly more defensive but that doesn't mean we have a great defensive group. We traded one bad defensive player for another when we rid ourselves of Briere and picked up Lecavalier.

Up until this season, Ovechkin had no problem making the playoffs. At the same time Ovechkin doesn't have the same support Crosby has. Mike Green for along time was considered their number one defenseman. Mike Green...defense...

Lecavalier scoring 20 and being on the ice for 36 against doesn't make the team better.
- Jsaquella

More like on the ice for 51 against... including over 4/11 of the team's shorties and -12 at even strength despite playing the easiest, most protected minutes.

20-goals is nice and all (around 100 forwards managed to hit that plateau this past season)... just too bad you actually have to out-score the opposition to win.

Vinny doesn't help the Flyers do that.

http://www.theglobeandmai...n-option/article18737506/

http://www.theglobeandmai...n-option/article18737506/


- Tomahawk

“But I’m just a casual fan.”

Then stay out of it. Enjoy hockey the way you enjoy theatre – unaligned.

You don’t go to Shakespeare in the Park and start throwing things at the stage when Mercutio buys it.


Thanks for sharing that one.

“But I’m just a casual fan.”

Then stay out of it. Enjoy hockey the way you enjoy theatre – unaligned.

You don’t go to Shakespeare in the Park and start throwing things at the stage when Mercutio buys it.


Thanks for sharing that one.
- tangent_man

Lecavalier just scored 20 goals during this past season. That's being effective, whether you choose to ignore this or not.
- SuperSchennBros

He wasn't an effective player at ES. Worst on the team in +/- and a black hole in terms of possession.

ES is where the Flyers need to make a big improvement if they want to be a top 10 team.

Please enough VL talk already

Geez, talk about beating a dead horse. This horse has been killed, beaten, resurrected, killed again and beaten once more. Can we get a new topic?

Please??

http://www.theglobeandmai...n-option/article18737506/


- Tomahawk

I throw things when Mercutio buys it...Tybalt's a wienerhead

Please enough VL talk already

Geez, talk about beating a dead horse. This horse has been killed, beaten, resurrected, killed again and beaten once more. Can we get a new topic?

Please??
- BiggE

Nick....Luukko!

Does he have a place after his old man bagged it?

Nick....Luukko!

Does he have a place after his old man bagged it?
- Jsaquella

I'm sure they can always find a spot in the ticket sales dept.

I'm sure they can always find a spot in the ticket sales dept.

- BiggE

It's the dry time, between being eliminated and the Cup being awarded. No trades happen and we're stuck waiting for the draft.

Caught up on the thread this morning. Wow

http://www.theglobeandmai...n-option/article18737506/


- Tomahawk

Is this what passes for satire these days in Canadia?