I don't see that as a weakness. A coach only has so many options on who to play.
- MJL

I hear you and that might be what I'm observing.

What you hope Berube is NOT doing is projecting how he saw himself as a player onto Rinaldo. That's all.

Every single player in the lineup isn't going to, and doesn't need to drive possession. It's way overblown. Painting every single player with the same broad brush, and under the same standards is exactly how Corsi isn't supposed to be used.
- MJL

I agree with this. Corsi only deals with shots right? Not sure how shots on net automatically means driving possession

I agree with this. Corsi only deals with shots right? Not sure how shots on net automatically means driving possession
- Just5

Good thing nobody only used Corsi, huh? There's a full set of metrics that measures possession. Some people belittle that because they don't understand how the numbers work and dismissing it as "Corsi" is an easy dodge.

I also mentioned that one player drove possession(Voracek) and that putting him with a player who did a poor job in terms of possession (Brayden Schenn) could very likely benefit not only that player, but provide a more effective second line.

Somehow that turned into painting every player with a broad brush. But by all means, let's hope the Flyers continue to run out a second scoring line that gets outshot on a routine basis at even strength. That plan worked so well for Toronto.

Good thing nobody only used Corsi, huh? There's a full set of metrics that measures possession. Some people belittle that because they don't understand how the numbers work and dismissing it as "Corsi" is an easy dodge.

I also mentioned that one player drove possession(Voracek) and that putting him with a player who did a poor job in terms of possession (Brayden Schenn) could very likely benefit not only that player, but provide a more effective second line.

Somehow that turned into painting every player with a broad brush. But by all means, let's hope the Flyers continue to run out a second scoring line that gets outshot on a routine basis at even strength. That plan worked so well for Toronto.
- Jsaquella

Man, you wake up in a foul mood, don't you?

Good thing nobody only used Corsi, huh? There's a full set of metrics that measures possession. Some people belittle that because they don't understand how the numbers work and dismissing it as "Corsi" is an easy dodge.

I also mentioned that one player drove possession(Voracek) and that putting him with a player who did a poor job in terms of possession (Brayden Schenn) could very likely benefit not only that player, but provide a more effective second line.

Somehow that turned into painting every player with a broad brush. But by all means, let's hope the Flyers continue to run out a second scoring line that gets outshot on a routine basis at even strength. That plan worked so well for Toronto.
- Jsaquella

The 2nd line hamstrung the team this year no question. I'm really hoping the flyers sign this rassmussen guy for the 4th line, to allow raffl to play in the top 9

I liked raffl playing on the top line.

Good thing nobody only used Corsi, huh? There's a full set of metrics that measures possession. Some people belittle that because they don't understand how the numbers work and dismissing it as "Corsi" is an easy dodge.

I also mentioned that one player drove possession(Voracek) and that putting him with a player who did a poor job in terms of possession (Brayden Schenn) could very likely benefit not only that player, but provide a more effective second line.

Somehow that turned into painting every player with a broad brush. But by all means, let's hope the Flyers continue to run out a second scoring line that gets outshot on a routine basis at even strength. That plan worked so well for Toronto.
- Jsaquella

I don't know much about advanced stats so forgive my ignorance, but what else is used to measure possession other than shots/shot attempts? Wouldn't having an intern (or two) sit down with game video and measure actual possession time be a better measure than correlating a different statistic to possession? Do no teams do this? Would we know if they did?

kinda. 1974 and 75 say hi. 76, 80, 85, 87, 97 and 10 do also. they get there and face dynasty-esque teams and fall short. it's not a surprise they won against boston and buffalo but didn't win against any of those other teams.
- hammarby31

I wouldn't say the flyers are any more successful than the sharks have been since their inception

Reminder Phillies over/under for wins 76.5. If you played the under to start the season, gotta be feeling pretty good.
- ravishingone

I don't know much about advanced stats so forgive my ignorance, but what else is used to measure possession other than shots/shot attempts? Wouldn't having an intern (or two) sit down with game video and measure actual possession time be a better measure than correlating a different statistic to possession? Do no teams do this? Would we know if they did?
- eayost

Shot attempts are the primary factor, but other items like zone starts & entry, quality of teammates and competition and game situations are part of it.

It would absolutely be great if the teams or the league simply did possession in terms of strictly timing it. There may well be teams that use that approach. Most teams keep their analytics use a somewhat guarded secret.

Here's Stan Bowman, GM of the Hawks on what his team does.

http://www.suntimes.com/s...an-edge.html#.U5WsDSj5dqw

That’s the bigger picture Bowman and other GMs around the league want to see when they’re contemplating trades, signings or contract negotiations.

The Hawks don’t call it Corsi or Fenwick. They have their own terminology and methodology. Bowman hinted the fundamental goal of the Hawks’ analytics is the same as the more commonly accepted ones, but he wouldn’t go into any more specifics.

‘‘What we do is different,’’ Bowman said. ‘‘I think it’s better, but I guess it’s a matter of opinion. It’s also a competitive advantage. That stuff’s readily available, but what we have is more proprietary, which is why I’m really trying not to talk about it. I think what we do gives us an advantage over other teams.’’

What it boils down to is using all the tools available to get a more complete picture. But simply watching the games tells you that Voracek is a guy who gets possession of the puck and drives the attack for his team. He's a guy that can skate the puck from his own end to the other team's zone on a routine basis and create chances. He's very adept at passing and making plays in all three zones and good at simply controlling the puck.

The other guy on the team who is best at that is Giroux. Splitting them provides a more dynamic guy who can create offense on each of the first two scoring lines, which in turn should generate more shots and scoring chances at ES for those lines. The stats themselves are nothing more than quantifying what is going on in the game, they are born from closely watching the game.

Ted Lindsay never heard of Corsi or Fenwick or any of the stats. But he also will tell you that possession is very important. As he said to Nick Cotsonika, Yahoo hockey writer:


Nick Cotsonika ‏@cotsonika

Just got to chat with Ted Lindsay. He said he's never heard of Corsi but "possession of the puck is control of the game."

EDIT: When I mention stats, or use them to make a point, I'm simply using them to provide a more concrete point. Rather than just say, "IMO", the stats give me a statistical basis to help form that opinion. They're not the end all, be all and I have never said that they are. They're just a tool that is available.

I don't know much about advanced stats so forgive my ignorance, but what else is used to measure possession other than shots/shot attempts? Wouldn't having an intern (or two) sit down with game video and measure actual possession time be a better measure than correlating a different statistic to possession? Do no teams do this? Would we know if they did?
- eayost

There are a number of things you can look at besides corsi and Fenwick.

It will display Quality of Competition, Zone Start %, Quality of Teammates, Even Strength Save%, etc.

We don't just look at the Corsi% and think thats the end all be all. Coututier has a slightly negative corsi, but he plays against very tough competition and gets a heavy load of defensive zone starts.

I don't know much about advanced stats so forgive my ignorance, but what else is used to measure possession other than shots/shot attempts? Wouldn't having an intern (or two) sit down with game video and measure actual possession time be a better measure than correlating a different statistic to possession? Do no teams do this? Would we know if they did?
- eayost

Shot metrics, zone-entry data (dump vs carry, def vs off), shift zone differentials are the main ones. People have sat down with stop-watches and have discovered that shot metrics do correlate strongly with pure possession time (and wins)... it's just more efficient/cost-effective to use the raw data from the league.

I'm sure most teams have guys on staff keeping track of numbers they feel is important... Chief said in an interview when asked about analytics that they have a guy on staff keeping track of all sorts of numbers and they're looking to find expanded ways of taking advantage of them.

Man, you wake up in a foul mood, don't you?
- tangent_man

Hey, if you aren't doing anything this Sunday, come on out and see us at Malelani

The 2nd line hamstrung the team this year no question. I'm really hoping the flyers sign this rassmussen guy for the 4th line, to allow raffl to play in the top 9

I liked raffl playing on the top line.
- Just5

I'd be ok with that if he had better hands, but I'm fine with him on the 2nd or 3rd unit.

- PhillySportsGuy

About the only solace I can take from the Phils season is that it will hopefully cost Amaro his job and they should end up with a top 5 pick in next year's draft.

Man, you wake up in a foul mood, don't you?
- tangent_man

I blame the 7 year old. She despises her teacher and every Monday morning is a battle royal to get her ready for school.

So after that, I log on and see my point mischaracterized and well, I figured I'd provide some clarity

About the only solace I can take from the Phils season is that it will hopefully cost Amaro his job and they should end up with a top 5 pick in next year's draft.
- BiggE

Yeah, although from most accounts, they had a pretty solid draft this year. Of course that's more the scouts than Amaro.

I blame the 7 year old. She despises her teacher and every Monday morning is a battle royal to get her ready for school.

So after that, I log on and see my point mischaracterized and well, I figured I'd provide some clarity
- Jsaquella

I hear you, Monday mornings pretty much suck on principle, adding extra aggravation to them is usually not a recipe for a good day.

Yeah, although from most accounts, they had a pretty solid draft this year. Of course that's more the scouts than Amaro.
- Jsaquella

True re the draft, but all I know is that if they end up with 65-70 wins and still keep Amaro, I'm just about done with them.

I hear you, Monday mornings pretty much suck on principle, adding extra aggravation to them is usually not a recipe for a good day.
- BiggE

I work Tuesday through Saturday...Today is my Sunday. That makes the aggravation worse. It upsets my Mimosa and steak and eggs

Another Corsi debate...(frank)ing great....might as well talk about rinaldo for a thousand posts.

True re the draft, but all I know is that if they end up with 65-70 wins and still keep Amaro, I'm just about done with them.
- BiggE

At this point, they have to make a change. Amaro has made some solid moves, but the bad ones really outnumber the good, and worse most of the good moves are the small scale or short term moves.

I work Tuesday through Saturday...Today is my Sunday. That makes the aggravation worse. It upsets my Mimosa and steak and eggs


- Jsaquella

At this point, they have to make a change. Amaro has made some solid moves, but the bad ones really outnumber the good, and worse most of the good moves are the small scale or short term moves.
- Jsaquella

Yup, his trades, FA signings, and the contracts he's done are, for the most part, poor. Time for a new GM

FWIW, and to steer discussion away from the dreaded Corsi conversation, Pierre McGuire talked about the Pens GM job on XM radio:

Basically, it boiled down to the Pens being unwilling to provide Pierre the security he had at NBC. He has a 7 year deal there and wasn't interested in leaving for a 2 or 3 year deal or to serve as a placeholder. He says Lemieux was very involved and that he respects his views, but that he(McGuire) needed more security to walk away from a sure thing at NBC

Another Corsi debate...(frank)ing great....might as well talk about rinaldo for a thousand posts.
- PhillaBully

You mean we are NOT going to debate the many wonderful issues surrounding VL??