Did Wayne Simmonds get traded, too?
- Tomahawk

I think they are trying to cover themselves in case they can't move Vinny. With Harntell moved it allows the players to insert into proper roles a little easier.

Schenn - Giroux Voracek
Simmonds - Vinny - Raffl/Read/Umberger
Umberger/Raffle/Bellemore - Couturier - Read
Raffl/Bellemore - laughton - Rinaldo/Cheap FA/Akeson

I think there is more flexibility. I just don't think they are done.

Originally Posted by healthyscratch
No real defining piece to this decisions... Wanted to get quicker... Versatility, better winger than center two way player, kills penalties... Cap flexibility down the road... Hard to say where he will play, option to play with G, other guys have a chance, he is an option with others up to players and coach... Hard deal to make, been a great flyer, but best for franchise... Talked to agent, agent talks to player for NTC... Hard one for Scott, was a shock approached to be moved...

I like our defense... Are we missing a stud, of course, don't fall off Christmas trees, have the young kids coming, kimmo buys us some time... Never pencil guys(kids)in, if they prove it in training camp that's another thing... Hate to see a kid here playing 10 minutes versus full time in Allentown... Anticipate Vinny being on the flyers, hard to say though... Continue to build thru draft... Defense coming, Laughton leier coming, keep adding young players and keeping draft picks.
- Winning

thanks for posting this

I think Hexy is on the right path, despite the head scratcher today

That's why I said, "This trade." Right now, are they a better team than they were yesterday?
- jmatchett383

for all the grief i give hartnell, forced to evaluate in strictly in a right here, right now manner, the answer i come up with is no. they are not. the overall level of talent on the team does at least drop a little bit.

but taken on a larger scale, i view the last 2 years of freedom it provides as being greater than the immediate talent discrepancy.

not THAT much greater, but still a somewhat net positive. the contract was a killer. it was going to exact a toll either way, via the value in return for it, or its own weight if kept.

Did Wayne Simmonds get traded, too?
- Tomahawk

Does Simmonds play LW? Last I checked we were weak there and I have yet to see Simmonds sniff top line time with Giroux.

Okay. I'll define better as "Able to win more."
- jmatchett383

Truthfully? They're still a 95-100 point team, right this minute, with Hartnell gone

if they stay healthy, they're gonna win games at the same pace

Flyers were that afraid of Hartnells contract in two years lol

for all the grief i give hartnell, forced to evaluate in strictly in a right here, right now manner, the answer i come up with is no. they are not. the overall level of talent on the team does at least drop a little bit.

but taken on a larger scale, i view the last 2 years of freedom it provides as being greater than the immediate talent discrepancy.

not THAT much greater, but still a somewhat net positive. the contract was a killer. it was going to exact a toll either way, via the value in return for it, or its own weight if kept.
- stayinthefnnet

That's my problem, the return. If it's a salary dump, okay. Nut hell, just trade for the 4th rounder, let CBJ buy out Umberger, and then sign him at a lower salary. Or tell Hartnell you'll trade him if he wants, but you need to shop him around a bit (which I'm assuming they didn't, but may have). If this was the best return they could get, I would have rather kept him and tried at the TDL.

Flyers were that afraid of Hartnells contract in two years lol
- Winning

So I guess Mark Streit's gonna be traded for a 7th any minute now.

Better ship off Timonen too, as that $2M bonus will hurt us next year.

So you want me to speculate on the salary cap 3 years from now?
- jmatchett383

im not saying it should be entirely the main objective, but it should always at least be somewhat on the mind.

okay lets evaluate it again given the vacuum parameter for discussion. lets use your suggestion of hartnell for a third.

now, the talent level on the team still does go down. do you still think that is a decent trade?

That's my problem, the return. If it's a salary dump, okay. Nut hell, just trade for the 4th rounder, let CBJ buy out Umberger, and then sign him at a lower salary. Or tell Hartnell you'll trade him if he wants, but you need to shop him around a bit (which I'm assuming they didn't, but may have). If this was the best return they could get, I would have rather kept him and tried at the TDL.
- jmatchett383

By itself, probably. It helps shift us further to a two-way focus, and eliminates a lot of unnecessary penalties. It also adds a bit more versatility cause RJ can switch from wing to center. We lose some goal scoring, but that tends to happen when more focus is given to defense.
- JAKEw1234

Why was RJ in the dog house in CJB?

That's my problem, the return. If it's a salary dump, okay. Nut hell, just trade for the 4th rounder, let CBJ buy out Umberger, and then sign him at a lower salary. Or tell Hartnell you'll trade him if he wants, but you need to shop him around a bit (which I'm assuming they didn't, but may have). If this was the best return they could get, I would have rather kept him and tried at the TDL.
- jmatchett383

and this is where i am more prone to agree with you.

if they took RJ because they HAD to. then okay. my prior evaluation of it still being a small net gain overall is where i still stand.

but if they took RJ because they WANTED to, then they must obviously know something i dont.

So you want me to speculate on the salary cap 3 years from now?
- jmatchett383

It amazes me that this organization gets criticized time and time again by the same people for being so short sighted but when they finally do something that could potentially put us in a better situation in the future, they (franked) up.

They didn't trade Schenn for Umberger. They gave up an aging power forward with a contract that is going to look real bad in two years. I can almost guarantee that if we had held onto Hartnell the same people criticizing the trade today, would be bashing the organization for not dumping him sooner while he still had some value left.

Because he asked about in three years. That implies that part of the value in this trade is the reduced term. How they handle that reduced commitment determines whether that was worth pursuing.

Given what we know about Umberger (similar goal totals, and injuries in the playoffs), it's hard to judge how it affects the lineup from an immediate hockey perspective. It could go really well, or really poorly.
- BulliesPhan87

Hard to worry about 3 years from now. Meh. Hartnell isn't a great loss, but Umberger is a bad return with a bad contract.

Flyers would be in better shape if Hartnell was abducted by aliens.

it was always #19 dream to play in Columbus

Fu
- Winning

i seen this

im not saying it should be entirely the main objective, but it should always at least be somewhat on the mind.

okay lets evaluate it again given the vacuum parameter for discussion. lets use your suggestion of hartnell for a third.

now, the talent level on the team still does go down. do you still think that is a decent trade?
- stayinthefnnet

If we're talking trading players for draft picks, it's usually a win only for the team trading the picks (except for when Pittsburgh traded for Douglas Murray, he was awful). That said, if it's only a player for a pick, the other thing you get is immediate salary cap space, so it depends on the amount on salary cap space created.

Anticipates vinny staying
- Winning

He's untradable. With b Richards, spezza, Thornton out there.

Hartnell was the deal to make. And I'm glad they did it.

Gotta hope vinny rebounds next year.

Flyers would be in better shape if Hartnell was abducted by aliens.
- PLindbergh31

Is their spaceship roomy enough to take Vinny, too?

i seen this
- -davies-

I was mad sorry

im not saying it should be entirely the main objective, but it should always at least be somewhat on the mind.

okay lets evaluate it again given the vacuum parameter for discussion. lets use your suggestion of hartnell for a third.

now, the talent level on the team still does go down. do you still think that is a decent trade?
- stayinthefnnet

It opens up cap space. My concern is that Umberger isn't any better than a 4th liner. I feel like they could find a better 3rd/4th liner in FA for less money and less years.

The idea that this team is taking a step back to take a step forward isn't really true. They are taking 3 steps back and 2 steps forward with this trade.

So I guess Mark Streit's gonna be traded for a 7th any minute now.

Better ship off Timonen too, as that $2M bonus will hurt us next year.
- jmatchett383

Streit isn't as likely as Hartnell to hit a wall in a year or two and see a rapid decline in play

From THN on the Hartnell/Umberger trade:

All this does is reinforce the notion that, thanks in part to the perpetual impatience of owner Ed Snider, the Flyers won’t succeed at the league’s highest levels because their key components are never allowed to settle in for too long. Players such as Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, Sergei Bobrovsky and others have been deemed not good enough for that organization, yet found success relatively quickly once they moved on. You can make the case that, individually, there were good reasons for dealing each of the players they’ve dealt. But when you look at the larger picture, you see a franchise suffering from a horrendous case of restless leg syndrome.
- Pixote Andolini

poor hartnell never got to settle in

i seen this
- -davies-

Thats how people down the Jersey shore talk