This is the type of thing I was referring to Matt Henderson on this site: UMBERGER – HARTNELL

New GM Ron Hextall’s first major move turns out to be a real head-scratcher as he chased out his club’s 4th leading scorer and 50 point guy Hartnell for a floundering RJ Umberger. The Oilers have been linked to both players on and off with most Oiler fans hoping to avoid Umberger while the majority of plugged in sources kept honing in on that name. Umberger and Hartnell have similar Cap Hits (less than a million apart) and both are associated with “physical” play but the similarities end there. Aaron Portzline continues to assert that the Blue Jackets were heavily contemplating a Compliance Buyout on Umberger as his Cap Hit far exceeded his contributions to the team.

Now you COULD just conclude the comparison at Hartnell’s 52 points to Umberger’s 34 and walk away knowing you had a pretty solid victory. But then you would miss out on the chance to gloat about the fact that Hartnell is one of the best possession players on Philly (+6.2% Corsi Rel) and Umberger is one of the worst for Columbus (-4.5% Corsi Rel). Umberger, as signaled by what was his impending buyout, is an anchor in the worst sense of the word.

As an Oiler fan I’m just glad we dodged a bullet.
- coffee junkie

Yes yes we get it, opinion writers understand the trade in a better capacity than the professional GM who has a full staff of pro scouts, and who is paid huge sums of money yearly to do what he believes to be best for his team. What has Hextall done yet to break our trust? Maybe there's an aspect of this trade we don't understand, or maybe it's just a better trade than meets the eye.

There has to be something more to this deal. It just doesn't make any sense. How is a consistent 20 goal scorer not worth a second round pick? Especially when he shows literally 0 signs of aging.
- FlyersSteve118

Because he's 32, which means it's 100% given written in stone that he's going to be terrible in 5 years because no power forward has ever been good in his mid 30s.

This is the type of thing I was referring to Matt Henderson on this site: UMBERGER – HARTNELL

New GM Ron Hextall’s first major move turns out to be a real head-scratcher as he chased out his club’s 4th leading scorer and 50 point guy Hartnell for a floundering RJ Umberger. The Oilers have been linked to both players on and off with most Oiler fans hoping to avoid Umberger while the majority of plugged in sources kept honing in on that name. Umberger and Hartnell have similar Cap Hits (less than a million apart) and both are associated with “physical” play but the similarities end there. Aaron Portzline continues to assert that the Blue Jackets were heavily contemplating a Compliance Buyout on Umberger as his Cap Hit far exceeded his contributions to the team.

Now you COULD just conclude the comparison at Hartnell’s 52 points to Umberger’s 34 and walk away knowing you had a pretty solid victory. But then you would miss out on the chance to gloat about the fact that Hartnell is one of the best possession players on Philly (+6.2% Corsi Rel) and Umberger is one of the worst for Columbus (-4.5% Corsi Rel). Umberger, as signaled by what was his impending buyout, is an anchor in the worst sense of the word.

As an Oiler fan I’m just glad we dodged a bullet.
- coffee junkie

Well summed up. I think it's a stupid deal all the way around.

Carchidi on nhl tonight last night. " I don't see hextall making any major moves". Next day. Major move.
- Sms401

Hextall probably wasn't gonna make a major move until he saw Carchidi say that

I'll admit the idea of Schenn and Simmonds getting a shot at playing with Giroux very much appeals to me. I just feel we lost a lot of offense here.

I'll admit the idea of Schenn and Simmonds getting a shot at playing with Giroux very much appeals to me. I just feel we lost a lot of offense here.
- SuperSchennBros

But dewd, we'll, like, totally have money in 3 years. That rewlz!

Okay. Now a power forward, but a guy who was even worse: Scott Gomez to Montreal.
- jmatchett383

That's a good example, but it also serves as the cautionary tale for managers now.

A contract that you know is going bad is just something you have to get rid of. When Montreal was allowed to escape Gomez's deal, they were desperate -- they didn't know what to do. $7 million per for a player on the fourth line or healthy scratch was killing them.

Again, I know Hartnell's probably getting 50 points next year. I don't dispute that, at all. But keeping that deal...and God help us, Vinny's deal...you can't do it in today's NHL, I feel.

It actually really is. If he can step up and produce consistently, it will go a long way.
- jmatchett383

and we won't know until he gets a chance. i say he's got a good one to do just that. let's wait and see.

i'm not crying over swapping hartnell for umberger. i'm more than fine with it.

I'll admit the idea of Schenn and Simmonds getting a shot at playing with Giroux very much appeals to me. I just feel we lost a lot of offense here.
- SuperSchennBros

Definitely an option, but some of that is going to depend how the organization sees BSchenn.....is he a center or a wing?

Hartnell could have easily gotten us a second rounder or even a first. Than just sign RJ in free agency. We get rid of Harts cap hit and reduce the Umberger cap hit significantly.
- FlyersSteve118

Nobody was giving up a 1st rounder for that contract and an undisciplined player. Hextall obviously would let people know Hartnell was available. Hartnell held all the cards. He wasn't waiving his no trade to go just anywhere. Columbus keeps him in the region and they're a contender.

Remember when we traded Talbot to Colorado for Downie? There are comparisons to be drawn between that trade and this one. People said, almost unanimously, that we were getting the better player. At the same time, people valued that Colorado was getting the more disciplined player with the better two-way game and stronger leadership. Because of this, people still recognized that Colorado was getting better, despite giving up some points in a player who had 9 points in 10 or 11 games at that point in Downie. I think it's similar here, despite both players being strong leaders. Two-way play and discipline isn't as pretty or exciting as bashing heads and scoring goals, but it's arguably more important to winning games.

Douglas Murray got 2 second round picks when he was 32. He's basically Hartnell on defense.
- jmatchett383

as gross as that was, to carry this out. he had one year left. you were buying the elimination of years.

That's a good example, but it also serves as the cautionary tale for managers now.

A contract that you know is going bad is just something you have to get rid of. When Montreal was allowed to escape Gomez's deal, they were desperate -- they didn't know what to do. $7 million per for a player on the fourth line or healthy scratch was killing them.

Again, I know Hartnell's probably getting 50 points next year. I don't dispute that, at all. But keeping that deal...and God help us, Vinny's deal...you can't do it in today's NHL, I feel.
- AllInForFlyers

4.75mil for a 20 goal 50 point first/second line LW (the one position the Flyers are weakest at) needs to go! How can we possibly win with a guy scoring that much for us at a less than market rate for his production?!

Nobody was giving up a 1st rounder for that contract and an undisciplined player. Hextall obviously would let people know Hartnell was available. Hartnell held all the cards. He wasn't waiving his no trade to go just anywhere. Columbus keeps him in the region and they're a contender.
- jstross

Bullpoop. Flyers held the cards. They could have said, "Well Scotty, the return from Columbus just isn't good enough, so we're either keeping you or you need to give us more options." No one held a gun to Hexy's head and made him trade Hartnell.

and we won't know until he gets a chance. i say he's got a good one to do just that. let's wait and see.

i'm not crying over swapping hartnell for umberger. i'm more than fine with it.
- hammarby31

And if Umberger is brutal, what is his buyout after next season? As opposed to Hartnell's if we are asking the same question in two years?

At some point, you just have to take the risk and manage the cap based on how you can balance the roster and move guys off the roster

as gross as that was, to carry this out. he had one year left. you were buying the elimination of years.
- stayinthefnnet

I'd rather have Hartnell for all 5 years than give up 2 first rounder for 2 months of Douglas Murray. But that's just comparing 2 specific situations.

Remember when we traded Talbot to Colorado for Downie? There are comparisons to be drawn between that trade and this one. People said, almost unanimously, that we were getting the better player. At the same time, people valued that Colorado was getting the more disciplined player with the better two-way game and stronger leadership. Because of this, people still recognized that Colorado was getting better, despite giving up some points in a player who had 9 points in 10 or 11 games at that point in Downie. I think it's similar here, despite both players being strong leaders. Two-way play and discipline isn't as pretty or exciting as bashing heads and scoring goals, but it's arguably more important to winning games.
- JAKEw1234

Flyers mantra: sign players for more years than we want, and then trade them 2 years later by taking worse players in a trade.

My take on this trade... I like it as long as hexy moves all 30+ contracts in next few years. Vinny, coburn, Amac, or streit. I think he realizes it's a young mans game and his first move is to get rid of those type contracts. It's really hard now to do it because probably going to have to take a umberger type back. It's basically a 2-3 year project. Umberger gone by then. Schenn, couts, morin, ghost, checky, simmer, hagg, Laughton, coming into their own by then. Plus whatever we draft in next few years. Now if we trade for or get ufa in their 30s for like 5year term 5-6 mil a year I will be scratching my head.

4.75mil for a 20 goal 50 point first/second line LW (the one position the Flyers are weakest at) needs to go! How can we possibly win with a guy scoring that much for us at a less than market rate for his production?!
- FlyersSteve118

Umberger with Voracek and G scores 25+ goals easy.

Was Hartnell really THAT good the last two years? Pretty much played top line minutes with a franchise center and first PP unit. It looks to me that they wanted Hartnell out of the locker room. Also, I believe the league view of Hartnell was pretty much seen by the return from Columbus. I'm pretty confident Hartnell would have waived to other contenders beside the Jackets. I'm sure this is the best deal Hexy could have gotten for him.

I'm glad the organization will rely more on Read, Coots, and B. Schenn to take on more scoring responsibilities.

CM Zoo?
- jak521

Yep. Spent the day there, hit Rita's, came home and watched Lego movie. Great day

4.75mil for a 20 goal 50 point first/second line LW (the one position the Flyers are weakest at) needs to go! How can we possibly win with a guy scoring that much for us at a less than market rate for his production?!
- FlyersSteve118

Well, one way to do it is to play better team defense and not be short-handed with the types of penalties Hartnell would take from time to time

You can skin this cat a few different ways

Remember when we traded Talbot to Colorado for Downie? There are comparisons to be drawn between that trade and this one. People said, almost unanimously, that we were getting the better player. At the same time, people valued that Colorado was getting the more disciplined player with the better two-way game and stronger leadership. Because of this, people still recognized that Colorado was getting better, despite giving up some points in a player who had 9 points in 10 or 11 games at that point in Downie. I think it's similar here, despite both players being strong leaders. Two-way play and discipline isn't as pretty or exciting as bashing heads and scoring goals, but it's arguably more important to winning games.
- JAKEw1234

A lower caliber scorer for a lower caliber PK guy. A first line 50 point guy for a injured scrub. Great analogy.

Definitely an option, but some of that is going to depend how the organization sees BSchenn.....is he a center or a wing?
- johndewar

I agree. For those who don't agree with my comments, I defend this team all the time. However, I just feel this is a brutal deal. Money wise it makes sense, from a product on the ice standpoint, I think it's brutal.

I'd rather have Hartnell for all 5 years than give up 2 first rounder for 2 months of Douglas Murray. But that's just comparing 2 specific situations.
- jmatchett383

they were two seconds.