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Forums :: Blog World :: Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Jump in the Fire
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Giroux_Is_God
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: CLASS DISMISSED
Joined: 12.15.2011

Jun 23 @ 11:02 PM ET

- JAKEw1234



9/10, rock solid appropriateness; would laugh again
ravishingone
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: United States, PA
Joined: 06.30.2007

Jun 23 @ 11:03 PM ET
You don't change the mix with both returning. Having a lack of physical play is just as bad as having a lack of skating/passing ability. Need to find a balance. Make no mistake about it, and this is not the popular opinion. But if the Flyers move Grossmann in favor of a less physical better skating defenseman, they will miss those elements that Grossmann brings. The last 2 defenseman that the Flyers have added have been more mobile defenseman with better puck skills.
- MJL



If the blueline as constituted last year was viewed as part of the problem not getting out of the defensive zone, somehow it is going to have to be tweaked.
AllInForFlyers
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Call Me Sweetcheeks
Joined: 03.18.2013

Jun 23 @ 11:03 PM ET
Lots of factors why a player is no longer fitting in with a team. I think statements that Umberger is a shot player are just assumptions.
- MJL


Agreed -- let's see the guy in a place where he is familiar and motivated.

I watched them some; not a ton, but some. I think he's got some legs left. The goals don't come easily for him, for what I saw, but he back checks and competed, from what I saw.

I think he get 15 g, 35 points, plays within the system. Then you take it year by year
Jsaquella
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Bringing Hexy Back
Joined: 06.16.2006

Jun 23 @ 11:04 PM ET
its not always that simple though.

given the chance, right now.

would you take craig adams for VL?

- stayinthefnnet


Ugh, that's a tough one.

Actually, yeah I would, because Adams could probably be flipped for a a draft pick at the TDL
Jsaquella
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Bringing Hexy Back
Joined: 06.16.2006

Jun 23 @ 11:05 PM ET
If the blueline as constituted last year was viewed as part of the problem not getting out of the defensive zone, somehow it is going to have to be tweaked.
- ravishingone


The flip side is, exchanging guys like Hartnell for more disciplined guys who will provide better puck support helps the existing defense.

Kind of a Catch-22. I don;t think Hextall's first choice is to stand pat on D
Winning
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Put in Matt Read
Joined: 03.29.2011

Jun 23 @ 11:05 PM ET


9/10, rock solid appropriateness; would laugh again

- Giroux_Is_God

stayinthefnnet
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Joined: 01.12.2012

Jun 23 @ 11:06 PM ET
What's Adams term and hit?
- AllInForFlyers


ah see youre already revealing the punch line haha. that was my whole point, you cant just look at the two players in a strictly "well one or the other vacuum".

for all his warts, VL is infinitely better than craig adams.

but, adams i believe has one year remaining at like 700-800k.

so given the choice, i guarantee there is at least one person on here who would ship VL off with a pretty bow in order to get the lesser player. i know i wouldnt move adams for VL. i realize my example is a tad more extreme than the exact one at hand, but my point is still the same. an evaluation based strictly on this one or that one fails to take in many relevant factors.
stayinthefnnet
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Joined: 01.12.2012

Jun 23 @ 11:07 PM ET
Ugh, that's a tough one.

Actually, yeah I would, because Adams could probably be flipped for a a draft pick at the TDL

- Jsaquella


i honestly doubt he could. he is literally the crypt keeper on skates. but in a years time, he will be gone. and for that reason, and that reason alone, i would not trade him for VL.
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Jun 23 @ 11:08 PM ET
If the blueline as constituted last year was viewed as part of the problem not getting out of the defensive zone, somehow it is going to have to be tweaked.
- ravishingone


But you don't just make a move to make a move. Have to make the right move. In recent weeks I advocated the Flyers pursuing Anton Stralman. After reading some comments made, and thinking about it some more, I have reversed that position. In my opinion the Flyers are at the point where the next defenseman they acquire needs to have both the ability to handle the puck and skate well, along with having a solid physical game. Players like Fayne and Stralman don't bring enough in the physical department to offset what the Flyers would lose with Grossmann in my opinion. Despite what some think, there is still a need for what Grossmann brings in this League. I don't feel the Flyers can afford to swap that physical play, just to get better mobility.
Jsaquella
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Bringing Hexy Back
Joined: 06.16.2006

Jun 23 @ 11:09 PM ET
i honestly doubt he could. he is literally the crypt keeper on skates. but in a years time, he will be gone. and for that reason, and that reason alone, i would not trade him for VL.
- stayinthefnnet


Hell at the very least, he can get shipped to the AHL and off the cap
AllInForFlyers
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Call Me Sweetcheeks
Joined: 03.18.2013

Jun 23 @ 11:09 PM ET
The flip side is, exchanging guys like Hartnell for more disciplined guys who will provide better puck support helps the existing defense.

Kind of a Catch-22. I don;t think Hextall's first choice is to stand pat on D

- Jsaquella


If Umberger plays within the system and helps, say, Vinny at ES...it's a win.

I said earlier, there's many ways to skin this cat. Umberger doesn't have to get 50 points if he takes 25 fewer minors than Hartnell did and helps team defense at ES
Giroux_Is_God
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: CLASS DISMISSED
Joined: 12.15.2011

Jun 23 @ 11:09 PM ET
ah see youre already revealing the punch line haha. that was my whole point, you cant just look at the two players in a strictly "well one or the other vacuum".

for all his warts, VL is infinitely better than craig adams.

but, adams i believe has one year remaining at like 700-800k.

so given the choice, i guarantee there is at least one person on here who would ship VL off with a pretty bow in order to get the lesser player. i know i wouldnt move adams for VL. i realize my example is a tad more extreme than the exact one at hand, but my point is still the same. an evaluation based strictly on this one or that one fails to take in many relevant factors.

- stayinthefnnet

AllInForFlyers
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Call Me Sweetcheeks
Joined: 03.18.2013

Jun 23 @ 11:12 PM ET
ah see youre already revealing the punch line haha. that was my whole point, you cant just look at the two players in a strictly "well one or the other vacuum".

for all his warts, VL is infinitely better than craig adams.

but, adams i believe has one year remaining at like 700-800k.

so given the choice, i guarantee there is at least one person on here who would ship VL off with a pretty bow in order to get the lesser player. i know i wouldnt move adams for VL. i realize my example is a tad more extreme than the exact one at hand, but my point is still the same. an evaluation based strictly on this one or that one fails to take in many relevant factors.

- stayinthefnnet


I hear you, brother -- there's always two sides when players get moved
ravishingone
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: United States, PA
Joined: 06.30.2007

Jun 23 @ 11:12 PM ET
But you don't just make a move to make a move. Have to make the right move. In recent weeks I advocated the Flyers pursuing Anton Stralman. After reading some comments made, and thinking about it some more, I have reversed that position. In my opinion the Flyers are at the point where the next defenseman they acquire needs to have both the ability to handle the puck and skate well, along with having a solid physical game. Players like Fayne and Stralman don't bring enough in the physical department to offset what the Flyers would lose with Grossmann in my opinion. Despite what some think, there is still a need for what Grossmann brings in this League. I don't feel the Flyers can afford to swap that physical play, just to get better mobility.
- MJL


Stop, I'm not condoning let's make a move to make a move theory. As it stands right now, the returning top 6 d-men are all back right now. If the general consensus, it wasn't the right mix at the end of game 7 against the Rangers, that perception hasn't changed now.

It's simple, the only guy right now who is guaranteed a spot in the top 6 opening night is Kimmo. I don't think that can be disputed.
stayinthefnnet
Pittsburgh Penguins
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Joined: 01.12.2012

Jun 23 @ 11:13 PM ET

- Giroux_Is_God

dear god
JAKEw1234
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: 2Spookyville, PA
Joined: 03.09.2013

Jun 23 @ 11:13 PM ET
But you don't just make a move to make a move. Have to make the right move. In recent weeks I advocated the Flyers pursuing Anton Stralman. After reading some comments made, and thinking about it some more, I have reversed that position. In my opinion the Flyers are at the point where the next defenseman they acquire needs to have both the ability to handle the puck and skate well, along with having a solid physical game. Players like Fayne and Stralman don't bring enough in the physical department to offset what the Flyers would lose with Grossmann in my opinion. Despite what some think, there is still a need for what Grossmann brings in this League. I don't feel the Flyers can afford to swap that physical play, just to get better mobility.
- MJL

Who would you target for defense?
2Real
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: IT'S GRITTIN TIME, CA
Joined: 07.14.2007

Jun 23 @ 11:14 PM ET
With Hexy mentioning he wanted to get quicker up front, gotta believe the same applies to the blueline. L. Schenn and Grossmann probably shouldn't be feeling very comfortable right now.
- ravishingone

i'm telling you trade grossman for mat irwin or braun
JAKEw1234
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: 2Spookyville, PA
Joined: 03.09.2013

Jun 23 @ 11:14 PM ET
Stop, I'm not condoning let's make a move to make a move theory. As it stands right now, the returning top 6 d-men are all back right now. If the general consensus, it wasn't the right mix at the end of game 7 against the Rangers, that perception hasn't changed now.

It's simple, the only guy right now who is guaranteed a spot in the top 6 opening night is Kimmo. I don't think that can be disputed.

- ravishingone

I think Coburn is at very little risk
MJL
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Candyland, PA
Joined: 09.20.2007

Jun 23 @ 11:14 PM ET
If Umberger plays within the system and helps, say, Vinny at ES...it's a win.

I said earlier, there's many ways to skin this cat. Umberger doesn't have to get 50 points if he takes 25 fewer minors than Hartnell did and helps team defense at ES

- AllInForFlyers


The Flyers have essentially tweaked the mix at Forward. They gave up a better offensive player and goal scorer, for a forward that skates better and has a better all around game. And takes less penalties and is more versatile. How that translates on the ice remains to be seen. And if it makes the Flyers a better team. One thing is the Flyers are a better team as far as hockey sense is concerned after the trade. And it means one of two other things in my view. That B Schenn is going to be elevated to the top line, or the Flyers are going to add another Winger somehow. My guess would be the latter.
jstross
Joined: 06.25.2012

Jun 23 @ 11:15 PM ET
Flexibility in three years from now? Will Hextall be GM in three years from now?
- SuperSchennBros


Except these facts.

Flyers want two way players.
Flyers want future cap flexibility (to be able to retain young guns).
Hartnell was done on the first line and had zero value on lines 3/4.
Several clubs contacted Flyers about Hartnell.

Not fact, Flyers took the best deal they could get from teams Hartnell agreed to waive NMC after being contacted by several clubs.

A no brainer deal IMO
2Real
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: IT'S GRITTIN TIME, CA
Joined: 07.14.2007

Jun 23 @ 11:15 PM ET
that is a gross oversimplification of the totality of the issue.
- stayinthefnnet

oh really do go into detail
Giroux_Is_God
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: CLASS DISMISSED
Joined: 12.15.2011

Jun 23 @ 11:16 PM ET
dear god
- stayinthefnnet

fight me. fight me right now
AllInForFlyers
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Call Me Sweetcheeks
Joined: 03.18.2013

Jun 23 @ 11:17 PM ET
The Flyers have essentially tweaked the mix at Forward. They gave up a better offensive player and goal scorer, for a forward that skates better and has a better all around game. And takes less penalties and is more versatile. How that translates on the ice remains to be seen. And if it makes the Flyers a better team. One thing is the Flyers are a better team as far as hockey sense is concerned after the trade. And it means one of two other things in my view. That B Schenn is going to be elevated to the top line, or the Flyers are going to add another Winger somehow. My guess would be the latter.
- MJL


Agreed; and I do think they sniff around for a goal-scorer. Don't know if they find one, or if we even know they are, but I have a feeling they sniff around
2Real
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: IT'S GRITTIN TIME, CA
Joined: 07.14.2007

Jun 23 @ 11:18 PM ET
hartnell 52 points playing with giroux

umberger 34 points playing with a bunch of no namers
2Real
Philadelphia Flyers
Location: IT'S GRITTIN TIME, CA
Joined: 07.14.2007

Jun 23 @ 11:18 PM ET
Agreed; and I do think they sniff around for a goal-scorer. Don't know if they find one, or if we even know they are, but I have a feeling they sniff around
- AllInForFlyers

vanek baby
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