Agreed, good 2nd pair guy, works well with Schenn. The problem with the Flyers defensively isnt the D so much, all 6 are solid, capable NHL dmen. The problems often stem from the forwards. When the forwards backcheck diligently and keep the gaps short, the Flyers D looks fine. When they don't the D struggles.

Would it be nice to have a Suter/Weber top pair? Sure, but how far did Nashville ever go with those two? If the forwards buy into and properly execute Berube's system, the D will be fine.
- BiggE

I disagree. The Kings would not have 2 cups without Doughty.The Blackhawks wouldn't have won without Duncan Keith or the Bruins without Chara. I'm not sure when the last time a team won the cup without a top-end defenseman?

Nashville's problem was balance, it's the same as the Flyers and the same as the Penguins. Nashville put all their money and system on defense and never addressed their offensive deficiencies. The Penguins frequently underperform due to all the money they have tied up in 3 offensive players.

A talented Defenseman eating up 25 minutes a night means that the forwards don't have to work as hard on defense and can devote more energy to offense. A good mix on defense also makes things easier on the players and system. A team with 6 Grossmanns isn't going to win the cup regardless of the system.

It also doesn't mean the forwards shouldn't support the defense but talent makes things easier and more positive plays happen. It also means that when the system breaks down, and the system will break down, that an individual player has a better chance to make a difference.

People are questioning the MacDonald hate. I'm not understanding the Grossmann hate. Take Timonen out of the line up, Grossmann goes head to head against the best and he's cheaper. I wish he was more gifted with the puck and fast but it doesn't mean he's a bad player because he isn't.
- SuperSchennBros

I would love to keep him, but we could probably get someone cheaper in FA. You are right, he is a better player than he is often given credit for.

I think Dallas is the obvious choice
- xShoot4WarAmpsx

Not if they are asking us to eat a large chunk of Vinnie's deal

He may be a little more mobile, but Grossmann is a significantly better defenseman then Gleason is.
- MJL

Nope.

I disagree. The Kings would not have 2 cups without Doughty.The Blackhawks wouldn't have won without Duncan Keith or the Bruins without Chara. I'm not sure when the last time a team won the cup without a top-end defenseman?

Nashville's problem was balance, it's the same as the Flyers and the same as the Penguins. Nashville put all their money and system on defense and never addressed their offensive deficiencies. The Penguins frequently underperform due to all the money they have tied up in 3 offensive players.

A talented Defenseman eating up 25 minutes a night means that the forwards don't have to work as hard on defense and can devote more energy to offense. A good mix on defense also makes things easier on the players and system. A team with 6 Grossmanns isn't going to win the cup regardless of the system.

It also doesn't mean the forwards shouldn't support the defense but talent makes things easier and more positive plays happen. It also means that when the system breaks down, and the system will break down, that an individual player has a better chance to make a difference.
- Flyers_01

You're right, the current Flyer D isnt going to win a cup. My point was that their current D is good enough to be a solid team and I'd rather live with that than grossly overpay a UFA or trade multiple, quality assets for one dman. I'm willing to be patient for now.

I disagree. The Kings would not have 2 cups without Doughty.The Blackhawks wouldn't have won without Duncan Keith or the Bruins without Chara. I'm not sure when the last time a team won the cup without a top-end defenseman?

Nashville's problem was balance, it's the same as the Flyers and the same as the Penguins. Nashville put all their money and system on defense and never addressed their offensive deficiencies. The Penguins frequently underperform due to all the money they have tied up in 3 offensive players.

A talented Defenseman eating up 25 minutes a night means that the forwards don't have to work as hard on defense and can devote more energy to offense. A good mix on defense also makes things easier on the players and system. A team with 6 Grossmanns isn't going to win the cup regardless of the system.

It also doesn't mean the forwards shouldn't support the defense but talent makes things easier and more positive plays happen. It also means that when the system breaks down, and the system will break down, that an individual player has a better chance to make a difference.
- Flyers_01

He didn't state that the Flyers defense will be Stanley Cup caliber if the forwards play better defensively. He said they'll be fine. Which to me means they'll be a solid group. I don't think anyone disagrees that the Flyers need to add a top end defenseman at some point.
And the LA Kings forwards work very hard defensively, and they all come back deep and play a 200 foot game. Even with that 25 minute a game stud in Doughty on the Kings defense.

Nope.
- Tomahawk

It's not even close.

Not if they are asking us to eat a large chunk of Vinnie's deal
- BiggE

What if it was the most we could eat for a 1st round pick

Gleason looked bad in Toronto, but if he's the option that results in less of Vinny's cash staying on the Flyers books, then that's the route to go
- Jsaquella

Aside from the obvious plugs (Clarkson, Fraser, Orr, McLaren), and wasting picks on guys like Tyler Biggs, I don't think TOR even really has a personnel problem... I suspect their problems are 99% tactical.

It's not even close.
- MJL

Nope.

I would love to keep him, but we could probably get someone cheaper in FA. You are right, he is a better player than he is often given credit for.
- mochoson

I'm just gonna come out and say exactly how I feel about the defense. I like Nicolas Grossmann and Luke Schenn. I think they're both nessassary players to have. Neither are perfect but I'm happy to have both. Then in my mind Andy MacDonald and Brayden Coburn are a lot like. Coburn is just bigger and MacDonald has more of an offensive touch. Now here is my issue. If Mark Streit could play half as well as Timonen in his own end, Timonen could be free to retire and we could all move on but Streit isn't that number one guy. To me, Streit doesn't give us the balance we need. I like Streit but he's a fourth forward at times and liability defensively. We're afraid of letting go of Timonen because of this. Would we be if Pronger was still on board?

He may be a little more mobile, but Grossmann is a significantly better defenseman then Gleason is.
- MJL

Says you.

What if it was the most we could eat for a 1st round pick
- griouxmvp2012

Pretty sure Dallas isnt offering a 1st under any circumstances

I'm just gonna come out and say exactly how I feel about the defense. I like Nicolas Grossmann and Luke Schenn. I think they're both nessassary players to have neither are perfect but I'm happy to have both. Then in my mind Andy MacDonald and Brayden Coburn are a lot like. Coburn is just bigger and MacDonald has more of an offensive touch. Now here is my issue. If Mark Streit could play half as well as Timonen in his own end, Timonen could be free to retire and we could all move on but Streit isn't that number one guy. To me, Streit doesn't give us the balance we need. I like Streit but he's a fourth forward at times and liability defensively. We're afraid of letting go of Timonen because of this. Would we be if Pronger was still on board?
- SuperSchennBros

They aren't afraid if letting go of Timonen. Signing him and bringing him back simply made the Flyers a better team. The contract could be an issue, which I wouldn't have done. But I wanted Timonen back.

Pretty sure Dallas isnt offering a 1st under any circumstances
- BiggE

Lol i know that but I have seen crazier things

Not if they are asking us to eat a large chunk of Vinnie's deal
- BiggE

They have plenty of space I don't see why we would have to eat a huge chunk. I think if this deal is in place, it will wait until Vinny gets his bonus

Pretty sure Dallas isnt offering a 1st under any circumstances
- BiggE

It would be a dream that the Flyers get any type of picks from Dallas and don't have to cover any salary. Dallas has the cap space and they don't have to lose any roster players or current assets. Its a win win.


PLEASE let this happen.

Pretty sure Dallas isnt offering a 1st under any circumstances
- BiggE

Not even in our dreams?

I don't understand why people keep thinking we HATE Grossmann and MacDonald. I certainly don't hate either of them. The primary concerns are the defensive mix and cap hit.

If the Flyers wish to move forward with a group of 2nd and 3rd pairing defenseman, I would like to see them find more balance. They simply don't have enough mobility or puck moving. The current NHL is becoming a much more possession driven league. They need to look for more guys who can drive possession.

I think switching out Grossmann or Schenn for a more possession driven player would help the team. I believe Grossmann and Schenn are both top 6 defenseman and do play a role in the NHL. Grossmann is VERY valuable on the PK and is pretty consistent in what he does.

MacDonald is a #4/5 imo. He's good in his own end, mobile and can handle the puck. He just concedes the blue line way too easily. It creates more problems for him. He concedes the blue line at a much higher rate than any other defenseman on the Flyers or the Islanders. I would rather the Flyers use the $5M elsewhere than on MacDonald.

Would you rather Ehrhoff for $6M or MacDonald for $5M? Ehrhoff is a bonafide top pairing defenseman and would provide the Flyers with EXACTLY what they need.

They have plenty of space I don't see why we would have to eat a huge chunk. I think if this deal is in place, it will wait until Vinny gets his bonus
- xShoot4WarAmpsx

Could be a financial issue.

I don't understand why people keep thinking we HATE Grossmann and MacDonald. I certainly don't hate either of them. The primary concerns are the defensive mix and cap hit.

If the Flyers wish to move forward with a group of 2nd and 3rd pairing defenseman, I would like to see them find more balance. They simply don't have enough mobility or puck moving. The current NHL is becoming a much more possession driven league. They need to look for more guys who can drive possession.

I think switching out Grossmann or Schenn for a more possession driven player would help the team. I believe Grossmann and Schenn are both top 6 defenseman and do play a role in the NHL. Grossmann is VERY valuable on the PK and is pretty consistent in what he does.

MacDonald is a #4/5 imo. He's good in his own end, mobile and can handle the puck. He just concedes the blue line way too easily. It creates more problems for him. He concedes the blue line at a much higher rate than any other defenseman on the Flyers or the Islanders. I would rather the Flyers use the $5M elsewhere than on MacDonald.

Would you rather Ehrhoff for $6M or MacDonald for $5M? Ehrhoff is a bonafide top pairing defenseman and would provide the Flyers with EXACTLY what they need.
- PhillySportsGuy

I agree with just about all of this. If I had it my way I'd move Grossmann before Schenn, mainly because I'd rather keep the youth and the one righty we have on our D. Granted, most teams would probably give up more for Schenn for those very same reasons.

I don't understand why people keep thinking we HATE Grossmann and MacDonald. I certainly don't hate either of them. The primary concerns are the defensive mix and cap hit.

If the Flyers wish to move forward with a group of 2nd and 3rd pairing defenseman, I would like to see them find more balance. They simply don't have enough mobility or puck moving. The current NHL is becoming a much more possession driven league. They need to look for more guys who can drive possession.

I think switching out Grossmann or Schenn for a more possession driven player would help the team. I believe Grossmann and Schenn are both top 6 defenseman and do play a role in the NHL. Grossmann is VERY valuable on the PK and is pretty consistent in what he does.

MacDonald is a #4/5 imo. He's good in his own end, mobile and can handle the puck. He just concedes the blue line way too easily. It creates more problems for him. He concedes the blue line at a much higher rate than any other defenseman on the Flyers or the Islanders. I would rather the Flyers use the $5M elsewhere than on MacDonald.

Would you rather Ehrhoff for $6M or MacDonald for $5M? Ehrhoff is a bonafide top pairing defenseman and would provide the Flyers with EXACTLY what they need.
- PhillySportsGuy

Both.

Could be a financial issue.
- MJL

Of course it's financial.......the Flyers can't even give away Vinny wth out eating contract....I guess all those teams missed the first month and a half of the season when Vinny was "on pace" for 34 goals.....tell us again how this wasn't another disaster call by Holmgren?

I agree with just about all of this. If I had it my way I'd move Grossmann before Schenn, mainly because I'd rather keep the youth and the one righty we have on our D. Granted, most teams would probably give up more for Schenn for those very same reasons.
- five4fighting10

Thats why most of us discuss Grossmann in trade scenarios. Schenn is a bit more mobile and has more offensive ability too. His greatest problem is consistency. If he can find consistency, he'll be a top 4 defenseman.

I don't understand why people keep thinking we HATE Grossmann and MacDonald. I certainly don't hate either of them. The primary concerns are the defensive mix and cap hit.

If the Flyers wish to move forward with a group of 2nd and 3rd pairing defenseman, I would like to see them find more balance. They simply don't have enough mobility or puck moving. The current NHL is becoming a much more possession driven league. They need to look for more guys who can drive possession.

I think switching out Grossmann or Schenn for a more possession driven player would help the team. I believe Grossmann and Schenn are both top 6 defenseman and do play a role in the NHL. Grossmann is VERY valuable on the PK and is pretty consistent in what he does.

MacDonald is a #4/5 imo. He's good in his own end, mobile and can handle the puck. He just concedes the blue line way too easily. It creates more problems for him. He concedes the blue line at a much higher rate than any other defenseman on the Flyers or the Islanders. I would rather the Flyers use the $5M elsewhere than on MacDonald.

Would you rather Ehrhoff for $6M or MacDonald for $5M? Ehrhoff is a bonafide top pairing defenseman and would provide the Flyers with EXACTLY what they need.
- PhillySportsGuy

The NHL game isn't changing. You still need to defend. And still need big bodied physical defenseman to play on the PK, and to battle in the corners and around the net. Some teams are fortunate to have the type of defenseman who can not only handle the physical game, but can also handle and move the puck efficiently. The Flyers don't have that player. And I agree wholeheartedly that Ehrhoff is a better player then MacDonald is at this point. But he's also 4 years older. And MacDonald is a growing player. I don't buy that MacDonald concedes the blueline too easily. I think different defenseman have different styles of play. And if MacDonald was a physical monster who steps up and takes out forwards at the blueline, the Flyers wouldn't have gotten him for the trade price they paid, and he would've cost a lot more then 5M a year.
So while I think Ehrhoff is a significant upgrade, and would be glad to have him. he really doesn't have that big physical edge to his game either. And the Flyers need to be careful about becoming too much of a finesse team on the backend.