I'd take Ehrhoff over Streit, but it would depend on what we'd have to give up to make that happen. Whenever you move players you tend to bleed assets. Right now I actually feel like our D is pretty balanced. Big physical stay at home guy paired with a puck mover. Coburn & Kimmo, Streit & Grossmann, and Mac & Schenn. Moving Ehrhoff for Grossmann unbalances our toughness on the backend.

Realistically if we can move Vinnie and still have enough to sign a backup netminder and a an improvement on LW. That's a pretty good offseason improvement for a team that was one of the better teams down the stretch and almost beat the Eastern Conference Finalists in 7 games.

Then we stock the Phantoms and see if they can make a run at the Calder Cup while the Big Club takes another shot at Stanley for Kimmo.

I don't think it's cheaper.
- SuperSchennBros

Schenn, Streit, MacDonald, Coburn are a push.
Ehrhoff $5.5 < Timonin $6
Timonin $2 < Grossman $3.5 with the bonus a push.

Ok, maybe equal at worst.

I don't understand why people keep thinking we HATE Grossmann and MacDonald. I certainly don't hate either of them. The primary concerns are the defensive mix and cap hit.

If the Flyers wish to move forward with a group of 2nd and 3rd pairing defenseman, I would like to see them find more balance. They simply don't have enough mobility or puck moving. The current NHL is becoming a much more possession driven league. They need to look for more guys who can drive possession.

I think switching out Grossmann or Schenn for a more possession driven player would help the team. I believe Grossmann and Schenn are both top 6 defenseman and do play a role in the NHL. Grossmann is VERY valuable on the PK and is pretty consistent in what he does.

MacDonald is a #4/5 imo. He's good in his own end, mobile and can handle the puck. He just concedes the blue line way too easily. It creates more problems for him. He concedes the blue line at a much higher rate than any other defenseman on the Flyers or the Islanders. I would rather the Flyers use the $5M elsewhere than on MacDonald.

Would you rather Ehrhoff for $6M or MacDonald for $5M? Ehrhoff is a bonafide top pairing defenseman and would provide the Flyers with EXACTLY what they need.
- PhillySportsGuy

Because they fail to understand that our issue is really asset management, or overpaying for guys who are solid depth guys, who can be replaced with little or no drop off, for less money.

I'd take Ehrhoff over Streit, but it would depend on what we'd have to give up to make that happen. Whenever you move players you tend to bleed assets. Right now I actually feel like our D is pretty balanced. Big physical stay at home guy paired with a puck mover. Coburn & Kimmo, Streit & Grossmann, and Mac & Schenn. Moving Ehrhoff for Grossmann unbalances our toughness on the backend.

Realistically if we can move Vinnie and still have enough to sign a backup netminder and a an improvement on LW. That's a pretty good offseason improvement for a team that was one of the better teams down the stretch and almost beat the Eastern Conference Finalists in 7 games.

Then we stock the Phantoms and see if they can make a run at the Calder Cup while the Big Club takes another shot at Stanley for Kimmo.
- flyler

Money is all they'd have to give up. Ehrhoff is a UFA, so it'd just be a matter of what return you could get for Streit

Because they fail to understand that our issue is really asset management, or overpaying for guys who are solid depth guys, who can be replaced with little or no drop off, for less money.
- Jsaquella

The problem here is that it's opinion based. It's not about understanding, it's about disagreeing. Especially when a player like MacDonald is labeled 4/5, in which part of that makes him a 3rd pair defenseman, which in my opinion is incredibly inaccurate. Players are named that can replace a player with little to no drop off that are supposedly cheaper, as if it's a fact that they can. A perfect example is today with Gleason as a replacement for Grossmann. He is not as good as Grossmann in my opinion.

The problem here is that it's opinion based. It's not about understanding, it's about disagreeing. Especially when a player like MacDonald is labeled 4/5, in which part of that makes him a 3rd pair defenseman, which in my opinion is incredibly inaccurate. Players are named that can replace a player with little to no drop off that are supposedly cheaper, as if it's a fact that they can. A perfect example is today with Gleason as a replacement for Grossmann. He is not as good as Grossmann in my opinion.
- MJL

I think it's a case of overvaluing our own players. Grossmann is very one dimensional. The Flyers can find a similar player to Grossmann every offseason. Probably for the same price or less.

I'm not going to argue over MacDonald because you simply don't believe possession is an important piece in evaluating a player.

The problem here is that it's opinion based. It's not about understanding, it's about disagreeing. Especially when a player like MacDonald is labeled 4/5, in which part of that makes him a 3rd pair defenseman, which in my opinion is incredibly inaccurate. Players are named that can replace a player with little to no drop off that are supposedly cheaper, as if it's a fact that they can. A perfect example is today with Gleason as a replacement for Grossmann. He is not as good as Grossmann in my opinion.
- MJL

And this is your opinion his and others will differ.

I think it's a case of overvaluing our own players. Grossmann is very one dimensional. The Flyers can find a similar player to Grossmann every offseason. Probably for the same price or less.


- PhillySportsGuy

The Flyers can certainly find a cheaper stay at home defenseman to replace Grossmann. But the question is does in make the team better or worse? I think some players are undervalued. And Grossmann is a better player then some feel he is in my opinion.

I'm not going to argue over MacDonald because you simply don't believe possession is an important piece in evaluating a player.
- PhillySportsGuy

This is not a correct statement on my opinion. I think the stats are flawed that are used to critique a player in terms of possession. If I didn't think that possession was important, why would I comment repeatedly on how MacDonald has upgraded the Flyers puck movement on the backend?

The problem here is that it's opinion based. It's not about understanding, it's about disagreeing. Especially when a player like MacDonald is labeled 4/5, in which part of that makes him a 3rd pair defenseman, which in my opinion is incredibly inaccurate. Players are named that can replace a player with little to no drop off that are supposedly cheaper, as if it's a fact that they can. A perfect example is today with Gleason as a replacement for Grossmann. He is not as good as Grossmann in my opinion.
- MJL

I don't think Gleason is as good as Grossmann either. I don't wanna downgrade just for the sake of doing so.

And this is your opinion his and others will differ.
- ob18

It's easier to just ignore it.

I don't think Gleason is as good as Grossmann either. I don't wanna downgrade just for the sake of doing so.
- SuperSchennBros

I agree. Any name can be thrown out there as cheaper and just as good. But just from a common sense standpoint, if that's the case, why don't the Flyers do that? Because they're not as smart as some of the fans?

Cool article by Jay Greenberg.

http://flyers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=724492

I don't think Gleason is as good as Grossmann either. I don't wanna downgrade just for the sake of doing so.
- SuperSchennBros

Grossmann may be one-dimentional but the one dimension he's got is really good. I actually prefer having players that are focused on the job they are suppose to do and do it well, rather than a bunch of guys who are kinda good or okay at almost everything. That's the difference between a mediocre versus exceptional player. Yes Grossmann's slower and isn't a point getter, but he clears the crease like a snowplow. We got Streit, Kimmo and Mac if we want points, but someone's gotta hang back and kick guys outta the crease. That's his strength, that's what he's used for, he does a damn good job. Gleason has more mobility and offensive game, but what I'd want from him is exactly what Grossmann does, and does better.

I agree. Any name can be thrown out there as cheaper and just as good. But just from a common sense standpoint, if that's the case, why don't the Flyers do that? Because they're not as smart as some of the fans?
- MJL

Another thing about Grossmann is he doesn't take a lot penalties for a guy who crushes other players and too slow to keep up.

Grossmann may be one-dimentional but the one dimension he's got is really good. I actually prefer having players that are focused on the job they are suppose to do and do it well, rather than a bunch of guys who are kinda good or okay at almost everything. That's the difference between a mediocre versus exceptional player. Yes Grossmann's slower and isn't a point getter, but he clears the crease like a snowplow. We got Streit, Kimmo and Mac if we want points, but someone's gotta hang back and kick guys outta the crease. That's his strength, that's what he's used for, he does a damn good job. Gleason has more mobility and offensive game, but what I'd want from him is exactly what Grossmann does, and does better.
- flyler

Well said!

No doubt about it, every player on our D is an NHL-caliber player, but none are top pairing anymore (but I could argue Coburn could be a fine #2 with the right #1)
- five4fighting10

Can't totally disagree with Coburn....

Money is all they'd have to give up. Ehrhoff is a UFA, so it'd just be a matter of what return you could get for Streit
- Jsaquella

True, but we'd first have to move out Vinnie, then we'd have to court and sign Ehrhoff, then we'd be over the cap again and probably have to move Streit, maybe getting screwed by GM's who know we are against the cap and bleed out some picks or prospects. All this within the next 3 days. Honestly, if we can get rid of Vinnie, I'm more concerned with getting a scoring Left wing and decent Backup Goalie than making a slight upgrade at D. Let's change from the Homer method of swinging for the fences and just take the high percentage play.

Grossmann may be one-dimentional but the one dimension he's got is really good. I actually prefer having players that are focused on the job they are suppose to do and do it well, rather than a bunch of guys who are kinda good or okay at almost everything. That's the difference between a mediocre versus exceptional player. Yes Grossmann's slower and isn't a point getter, but he clears the crease like a snowplow. We got Streit, Kimmo and Mac if we want points, but someone's gotta hang back and kick guys outta the crease. That's his strength, that's what he's used for, he does a damn good job. Gleason has more mobility and offensive game, but what I'd want from him is exactly what Grossmann does, and does better.
- flyler

Grossmann may be one-dimentional but the one dimension he's got is really good. I actually prefer having players that are focused on the job they are suppose to do and do it well, rather than a bunch of guys who are kinda good or okay at almost everything. That's the difference between a mediocre versus exceptional player. Yes Grossmann's slower and isn't a point getter, but he clears the crease like a snowplow. We got Streit, Kimmo and Mac if we want points, but someone's gotta hang back and kick guys outta the crease. That's his strength, that's what he's used for, he does a damn good job. Gleason has more mobility and offensive game, but what I'd want from him is exactly what Grossmann does, and does better.
- flyler

Another dimension that Grossmann is has is the (kinda obvious) support of the coaching staff that keeps running him out there. The coaching staff clearly sees something in his game they like.

Cool article by Jay Greenberg.

http://flyers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=724492
- MJL

Jay Greenberg was the best Flyers beat writer
We had some communication back in the days before the web ( on paper, letters in envelopes) about a mutually disliked hockey scribe. It was in the late 70's early 80's. He is a guy I would love to sit down and talk about the game with over dinner and few beers

I don't think its about what the skills of Grossmann and Gleason are.

Instead its about the sweater they wear.

If Gleason was on the Flyers we would be reading pages of BS about how he is the best thing since sliced bread.

I don't think its about what the skills of Grossmann and Gleason are.

Instead its about the sweater they wear.

If Gleason was on the Flyers we would be reading pages of BS about how he is the best thing since sliced bread.
- flyer_nutter

...until Thanksgiving, when he's the worst thing since black licorice

True, but we'd first have to move out Vinnie, then we'd have to court and sign Ehrhoff, then we'd be over the cap again and probably have to move Streit, maybe getting screwed by GM's who know we are against the cap and bleed out some picks or prospects. All this within the next 3 days. Honestly, if we can get rid of Vinnie, I'm more concerned with getting a scoring Left wing and decent Backup Goalie than making a slight upgrade at D. Let's change from the Homer method of swinging for the fences and just take the high percentage play.
- flyler

They have until the start of the season to be under the cap. And if there's any truth to rumors, Vinny could be gone by Tuesday.

Adding a scoring LW is swinging for the fences more than adding a UFA defenseman who would immediately step in and be one of the best defensemen on the roster. Ehrhoff is a bit more than a slight upgrade.

Another dimension that Grossmann is has is the (kinda obvious) support of the coaching staff that keeps running him out there. The coaching staff clearly sees something in his game they like.
- johndewar

He's a pro and a warrior in my mind.

I don't think its about what the skills of Grossmann and Gleason are.

Instead its about the sweater they wear.

If Gleason was on the Flyers we would be reading pages of BS about how he is the best thing since sliced bread.
- flyer_nutter

Of course. Meanwhile, both are limited guys, in decline from age or injury