You may be interested in this. I had a discussion for several minutes with Bill Clement about this topic a few months ago, specifically as relates to MacDonald.

Paraphrased slightly, Clement said, "People want the defensemen to stand everyone up at the blueline. Well, yeah, but when the other team attacks with speed through the neutral zone, the defensemen have no choice but to back in and try to contain. Gap control is everyone's responsibility. Actually, I really like MacDonald's positioning most of the time, and he makes a good first pass when he has to go back and retrieve the puck."
- bmeltzer

C'mon Bill, it's only the defenseman on the side of the ice where the puck is taken into the zone at, responsibility. And every rush is equal!

Just another in a list of flawed stats that are given way too much weight.

do you really not watch games? constant blown coverages and poopty clearance passes
- 2Real

I watch the games and this doesn't happen. He might take overly aggressive penalties but everything you're saying is made up. He wouldn't be a top pair defenseman or be on this team longer then anyone else if what your saying were true. He's not perfect but he's better then anything else we have, which is why he eats the most minutes on the team.

I think a big difference will be learning the system. He seemed just ok when he first arrived, but seem to settle in when he learned the system. The more he plays in this system the better he'll get.... Because to your point, the read will be easier.
- leon neon

There's always an adjustment period for a player coming to a new team. We saw it with Streit in the beginning of his first year here. But some want to take a small sample size, and label the player. Mark Streit was no good when he was signed according to the same source.

But yet how many shots are actually taken on net in a game, much less how many are attempted?
- MJL

Getting quality shots on net isn't an easy thing to do. That's forsure.

I blame myself for picking them to make it to the Memorial Cup
- PhillySportsGuy

Yes, it is your fault

I watch the games and this doesn't happen. He might take overly aggressive penalties but everything you're saying is made up. He wouldn't be a top pair defenseman or be on this team longer then anyone else if what your saying were true. He's not perfect but he's better then anything else we have, which is why he eats the most minutes on the team.
- SuperSchennBros

don't you see the problem then? "he's bad but he's not that bad" why not move on and try to acquire a better dman

The thing about statistics is they take this into account. Over a period of time (the season) there are hundreds of different situations where easy stops at the blue line get missed by a defender and usually just as many hard stops by the defender at the blue line where a good play is made.

So to disregard the stats completely just because you don't like how they quantified one play, one time is not a valid "discredit" to the stat.

I think MacDonald has played his whole career on a team that has been lackadaisical at best with puck support and back checking and that has severely hurt his confidence to step up on a play at the blue line. Hopefully this can be improved upon and he will not have to stand in the way of so many shot attempts next season.
- FlyersSteve118

All the statistic does is exclude odd man rushes. It does not exclude plays where the defenseman made the right read to back in on the play. It would take more knowledge then some of the sources of these stats obviously have. Secondly how does it take into account situations where a poor puck decision was made by a forward who didn't get the puck deep, resulting in speed through the neutral zone even in a 2 on 2 situation. Or how about a bad D change behind the play, and a failure of a forward to get the puck deep? It's about far more then one play. It's about the game. And these flawed stats that try and foolishly turn a team game into an individual game, to try and rate players.
Not to mention other factors such as a new player to a team being a little cautious when trying to get a feel for how a team and teammates play

don't you see the problem then? "he's bad but he's not that bad" why not move on and try to acquire a better dman
- 2Real

admitting that coburn is the best of what you have doesnt preclude trying to acquire a better one.

unless he is part of the package to get his upgrade, moving him out will devastate this current flyers roster.

it would be like having a decent, but not great, car. yeah youd like to upgrade. but you might want to have that plan for acquiring your better vehicle before you just sell off this one. or else youre going to be taking the bus. then youll pine for the days of that "decent" vehicle of before.

given your in-depth, encyclopedic knowledge of the salary cap, it's logical to assume that your knowledge of roster building is equally impressive. therefore, i agree with your assertion.
- hammarby31

You know it!

admitting that coburn is the best of what you have doesnt preclude trying to acquire a better one.

unless he is part of the package to get his upgrade, moving him out will devastate this current flyers roster.

it would be like having a decent, but not great, car. yeah youd like to upgrade. but you might want to have that plan for acquiring your better vehicle before you just sell off this one. or else youre going to be taking the bus. then youll pine for the days of that "decent" vehicle of before.
- stayinthefnnet

or you find some sucker to overpay for your old car so getting another is easy

Definitely... problem is, AMac isn't that great in the d-zone either. His positioning can be suspect, he tends to lose his man, and he can get beat 1v1.

If he can be more firm at the line (and having confidence that help should be there if he needs it), and he can do his usual A+ retrieval/outlet thing, he could be a very valuable guy.

If he keeps sitting back on his heels and backing in, and hoping that planting himself in a lane and praying is going to save the day, then we may have problems.
- Tomahawk

So to summarize, MacDonald gives up the blueline too much, making his other contributions to the team moot. Isn't great in the D zone. His positioning can be suspect, he tends to lose his man, and he can get beat 1 on 1.
So I have three questions. Why did the Flyers trade for this players and sign him to a deal for 5M a year? And how does Bill Clement, a former NHL player, see a completely different player? Why do they see the opposite of what you see in the player?

don't you see the problem then? "he's bad but he's not that bad" why not move on and try to acquire a better dman
- 2Real

Because he's a top-2 guy on this team and their last concern should be upgrading their "2b" with a true #2.

or you find some sucker to overpay for your old car so getting another is easy
- 2Real

to carry this analogy to its breaking point, i think youll find the prices on new ones so egregious that pretty much any one that you could see yourself in will require the sacrifice of another amenity to the point where you no longer want it.

and that period between the transactions of selling and buying, again, youre really gonna be hoofing it.

So when Coburn plays against the other teams best line and forces more than triple of these tougher opponents to dump the puck in than MacDonald does vs. weaker competition. Isn't that much more telling that something is lacking?

Also..


- FlyersSteve118

That excludes the variable of teammates, and the situations of the game. There is one way, and one way only to come up with a viable rating of a player. And that's to have a competent evaluator watch the player play.

As evident by Bill Clement stating that he likes MacDonald's positioning on the ice, and how he plays.

to carry this analogy to its breaking point, i think youll find the prices on new ones so egregious that pretty much any one that you could see yourself in will require the sacrifice of another amenity to the point where you no longer want it.

and that period between the transactions of selling and buying, again, youre really gonna be hoofing it.
- stayinthefnnet

not really 2 2nd round picks from edmonton which are essentially are 1st round picks would be awesome

imagine 2 haags, 2 morins, or 2 sanheims or a mix of them those prospects look better than rolling with brayden coburn for yet another year

not really 2 2nd round picks from edmonton which are essentially are 1st round picks would be awesome

imagine 2 haags, 2 morins, or 2 sanheims or a mix of them those prospects look better than rolling with brayden coburn for yet another year
- 2Real

without trying to be too ohhh hes a pens fan so hes obviously trolling, i think a lot of people will be happy if morin develops into coburn.

without trying to be too ohhh hes a pens fan so hes obviously trolling, i think a lot of people will be happy if morin develops into coburn.
- stayinthefnnet

it's not hard

without trying to be too ohhh hes a pens fan so hes obviously trolling, i think a lot of people will be happy if morin develops into coburn.
- stayinthefnnet

People will be happy with Morin, well they will if they just let him develop.

it's not hard
- 2Real

not that id wish an injury on any player, but i think it would be nice to see him miss like say a two month stretch.

not that id wish an injury on any player, but i think it would be nice to see him miss like say a two month stretch.
- stayinthefnnet

uh huh

not that id wish an injury on any player, but i think it would be nice to see him miss like say a two month stretch.
- stayinthefnnet

Crosby and Malkin should take a trip to Russia for a few months this season. Some nice bonding time

uh huh
- 2Real

seriously. by your logic it should improve the team

seriously. by your logic it should improve the team
- stayinthefnnet

in the short term no but the long term yes

Crosby and Malkin should take a trip to Russia for a few months this season. Some nice bonding time
- PhillySportsGuy

no no. theyre key cogs of the team.

coburns obviously just garbage. apparently you guys wont even miss him.

Crosby and Malkin should take a trip to Russia for a few months this season. Some nice bonding time
- PhillySportsGuy

they don't go to russia for that