Andreas Nodl fizzled out.
- SuperSchennBros

Nodl was an offensive player who developed his defensive game after he came to the States. He was constantly in and out of the lineup most seasons.

Raffl came over as a polished defensive player and it was immediately clear he was NHL ready. There was never any thought of sending him down once he joined the Flyers.

He improved every line he played on. He carried the 4th line to respectability.

I haven't heard anybody really hating on the kid or the logic behind chasing after him... seems most are just wondering about the risks of expending multiple draft picks for his rights versus just waiting for him to hit UFA on Aug 15. Either way, he's just going to sign wherever he wants, and there seem to be some more obvious destinations for him to go to (FLA, CGY, BOS).

Unless I'm in the dark here and he always wanted to be a Flyer.
- Tomahawk

#BornToBeAFlyer

The guys who fizzle out are usually one-dimensional, offensive players. Raffl is a strong two-way forward. Even if he scores 5 goals next year, he's still a valuable 4th liner and PKer.

I think Raffl could get 15-20 goals playing in the top 9 all season.
- PhillySportsGuy

It depends. A one-dimensional player like Jonathan Drouin would do just fine

Raffl was a nice acquisition for one reason - as an undrafted FA he came cheap and didn't cost them any other assets. He is a great role player with some upside.

Nodl was an offensive player who developed his defensive game after he came to the States. He was constantly in and out of the lineup most seasons.

Raffl came over as a polished defensive player and it was immediately clear he was NHL ready. There was never any thought of sending him down once he joined the Flyers.

He improved every line he played on. He carried the 4th line to respectability.
- PhillySportsGuy

Actually, I was fine with using a 2nd round pick on Nodl. At the time they picked him, he had a reasonably high ceiling and did quite well at St. Cloud State. It didn't work out for him as a player. It happens. But it was a good pick. Much better than a 3rd round pick on Goulbourne.

I agree with this. As a whole, the pattern for developing forwards is that their biggest jump in points occurs between their 3rd and 4th year. You can usually have a pretty good feel on what kind of points a player will put up by the end of their 4th season. There are exceptions of coarse, power forwards can have a slower development. I hope to see jumps in production from both players. Coots may have a longer development offensively because his offense come out of his defense. To me this is Schenn's prove-it season. The Flyers really need to help out by picking a position and keeping him there.
- mmcclatchy

I feel Schenn needs to play center and he needs capable linemates. No VL, no Umberger. Give him Raffl or Jake or Simmonds or Read. Some combo of those players.

I was at one game when the Flyers were in town and I swear 3/4 of the arena was flyer fans and I felt like I was home
- vejim

I might have even been part of that 3/4

I think you have some legitimate points. Realistically, on a top team (Bruins, Hawks, Kings, etc) none of these guys would have a shot to crack the top 9. Akeson is more likely a career AHLer and NHL fill-in. Raffl's upside is really a 3rd liner who could fill in occasionally on the 1st or 2nd line. Obviously we'll see on Bellemare.

My biggest complaint about Holmgren's drafting has always been that after the 1st round he tends to take players with a higher probability of reaching the NHL but with a lower ceiling. Rinaldo is a great example. Cousins and Leier might be more recent examples.

I don't know if any of the players from this year's draft will make the NHL, but I like the premise behind the picks. I think they might be longer shots to make it in some cases, but the ceilings are higher for this crop than in the past.

To me, you can always find a Raffl or Akeson or Bellemare to round out the 3rd or 4th lines. Or you can sign a Talbot or Hall, etc. So you pick players with the highest ceiling in the draft, and even if you have a lower hit rate for them to make it to the NHL, that one home-run and a triple or two is what you build the organization off of.
- TheGreat28

Well said.

You see, if any of the players I've mentioned do not workout, we can shruge them off. We can replace them with something. At the same time we're placing them in the NHL and really seeing what happens. It's like throwing something at the wall and seeing what sticks. I'm not crazy about this approach.

It depends. A one-dimensional player like Jonathan Drouin would do just fine

Raffl was a nice acquisition for one reason - as an undrafted FA he came cheap and didn't cost them any other assets. He is a great role player with some upside.
- TheGreat28

He would be nice

Actually, I was fine with using a 2nd round pick on Nodl. At the time they picked him, he had a reasonably high ceiling and did quite well at St. Cloud State. It didn't work out for him as a player. It happens. But it was a good pick. Much better than a 3rd round pick on Goulbourne.
- TheGreat28

He wasn't an awful player for the Flyers. He was just inconsistent and couldn't finish.

I agree. I was hoping the Flyers could find someone to play with G and bump Jake down. I'm not talking about some 50 goal scorer. A guy like Mueller may have the ability to keep up with G.

Trading Hartnell makes that difficult now. If they bumped Jake down to Schenn's line, they'd be looking for two new linemates to play with G.

Schenn's numbers away from Briere and VL over the past two years are pretty decent. Giroux is the top line center and Couts is the checking line center. It seems like Schenn is always left with the guys who aren't good enough to play on the top line, but aren't good enough at defense to play on the third line. He's forced to play with what's left. Most of the time, they aren't the right pieces.
- PhillySportsGuy

All great points!

I think flipping Simmonds and Jake would have been optimal, but this only made sense if they added a sniper to play with Giroux or kept Hartnell. Last year I would have tried Hartnell and Vinnie with G. That is what Vinnie alluded to when they acquired him, but it never really happened for an extended period of time.

Schenn needs more offensive talent, and I really don't think Simmonds complements him well, particularly without a highly skilled player on the other side who can carry the puck, create offense.

I really don't like any of their left wings as legit candidates for 1st and 2nd lines. I like Umberger as a third liner with Read and Couturier. Raffl is a nice player but not really skilled enough, and Vinnie seems to be more comfortable on the right vs. left IF he were to play winger.

Nodl was an offensive player who developed his defensive game after he came to the States. He was constantly in and out of the lineup most seasons.

Raffl came over as a polished defensive player and it was immediately clear he was NHL ready. There was never any thought of sending him down once he joined the Flyers.

He improved every line he played on. He carried the 4th line to respectability.
- PhillySportsGuy

Nodl and Raffl regardless of growth and development are a mirror situation in the Philadelphia Flyers. Having this conversation with you is the exact conversation I've had with many 4 years ago. Nodl began his career in and out of the line up like any other young player with average expectations. Nodl wasmore of a main stay then Nik Zherdev. Obviously not a tough thing to do but he was also mostly seeing time with Mike Richards like Raffl has seen a lot of time with Claude Giroux.

Well said.

You see, if any of the players I've mentioned do not workout, we can shruge them off. We can replace them with something. At the same time we're placing them in the NHL and really seeing what happens. It's like throwing something at the wall and seeing what sticks. I'm not crazy about this approach.
- SuperSchennBros

I agree, but I would qualify that with one sad reality. Because of the cap situation, which others seem to think is not a problem, and lack of assets they really don't have any choice. There simply are no other young, cheap more highly skilled players to plug in instead of Raffl, Akeson or Bellemare. Hoping one of these guys sticks is all we have right now.

Hexy was truly handcuffed, and it will take one more cycle (season, trading deadline, draft, free agency) before he can dig his way out.

I feel Schenn needs to play center and he needs capable linemates. No VL, no Umberger. Give him Raffl or Jake or Simmonds or Read. Some combo of those players.
- PhillySportsGuy

Again I agree with this. The potential problem I see is if Vinny is still on the roster, that could very well leave Schenn on the wing. If that's the case I would like him to have a long look as 1LW with G&V, deal with any early bumps and see if he can settle in without having to worry about being placed all over with no certainty with line mates.

Nodl and Raffl regardless of growth and development are a mirror situation in the NHL. Having thiscconversation with you is the exact conversation I've had with many 4 years ago. Nodl began his career in and out of the line up like any other young player with average expectations. Nodl wasmore of a main stay then Nik Zherdev. Obviously not a tough thing to do but he was also mostly seeing time with Mike Richards like Raffl has seen a lot of time with Claude Giroux.
- SuperSchennBros

I'm a Raffl fan, but even I wouldn't call him sticking in the NHL a sure bet.

He had one unexpectedly good season. Now he's gotta go out and do it again. If he fails, let's just say he wouldn't be the first.

I'm a Raffl fan, but even I wouldn't call him sticking in the NHL a sure bet.
- Tomahawk

I agree. And I don't think anyone in the Flyers organization ever called him a sure thing either. He truly falls into the pleasant surprise bucket.

Nodl at the time was a highly touted prospect. Didn't he win college rookie of the year in his conference, or something like that. I'd love for the team to draft more players like this. Hopefully some will pan out better. I personally think he lost his confidence a bit, and his hands went with it. That doomed him more than anything.

All great points!

I think flipping Simmonds and Jake would have been optimal, but this only made sense if they added a sniper to play with Giroux or kept Hartnell. Last year I would have tried Hartnell and Vinnie with G. That is what Vinnie alluded to when they acquired him, but it never really happened for an extended period of time.

Schenn needs more offensive talent, and I really don't think Simmonds complements him well, particularly without a highly skilled player on the other side who can carry the puck, create offense.

I really don't like any of their left wings as legit candidates for 1st and 2nd lines. I like Umberger as a third liner with Read and Couturier. Raffl is a nice player but not really skilled enough, and Vinnie seems to be more comfortable on the right vs. left IF he were to play winger.
- TheGreat28

If VL stays, the only spot I can see for him is on G's RW. I think they'd need to put Raffl on the LW though to balance them defensively and provide some speed and puck carrying.

It would require the Flyers to make additional trades though. In fact they cannot hide any of the current roster players down in the AHL as all of the contracts on the current roster are one-way. They have to shed salary before the start of the season. Am I wrong in this assumption?
- redcoat75

Yes, that is wrong, the Flyers do not need to shed salary before the start of the season.

After backreading 4 pages of this thread, I've come to the conclusion that I need to grab a cold brew and head out back to the pool!

I agree, but I would qualify that with one sad reality. Because of the cap situation, which others seem to think is not a problem, and lack of assets they really don't have any choice. There simply are no other young, cheap more highly skilled players to plug in instead of Raffl, Akeson or Bellemare. Hoping one of these guys sticks is all we have right now.

Hexy was truly handcuffed, and it will take one more cycle (season, trading deadline, draft, free agency) before he can dig his way out.
- TheGreat28

Most NHL teams don't have a flood of young cheap highly skilled talent to add to the lineup just waiting every year. If you add one player of that caliber a year, you've done really well. Secondly, the Flyers cap situation will not prevent the Flyers from adding such players. Those type of players will be on EL deals, and the Flyers could easily fit them on the team in the current cap situation. In fact having a couple of young players on EL deals to plug in would help the cap situation.
And lastly, Holmgren left Hextall with Giroux, Simmonds, Voracek, Read, Couturier, B Schenn, and possibly Laughton. All young quality players. Are those handcuffs fur lined?

I'm a Raffl fan, but even I wouldn't call him sticking in the NHL a sure bet.

He had one unexpectedly good season. Now he's gotta go out and do it again. If he fails, let's just say he wouldn't be the first.
- Tomahawk

I agree completely.

If VL stays, the only spot I can see for him is on G's RW. I think they'd need to put Raffl on the LW though to balance them defensively and provide some speed and puck carrying.
- PhillySportsGuy

I actually agree with you regarding Vinnie. The problem is their best two wingers, Simmonds and Jake, also play better on the right side. I'm not really qualified to say if either could play on the left, but I don't think you bump either to the 3rd line.

I don't see them ever trying this, but if they kept Vinnie I'm curious about whether this line-up would work:

Simmonds - G - Vinnie
Raffl - Schenn - Jake
Umberger - Couturier - Read

Simmonds game seems more easily moved to the other side than Jake's. I'd worry a little bit about speed and defense with 1st line, but Jagr wasn't exactly Lightning McQueen either and played quite well with Giroux. He could protect the puck better than Vinnie though.

Jake would really complement Schenn, in my opinion. He could carry the puck, let Raffl do some of the dirty work along boards as well. Schenn could occupy the middle and play closer to the net.

I agree, but I would qualify that with one sad reality. Because of the cap situation, which others seem to think is not a problem, and lack of assets they really don't have any choice. There simply are no other young, cheap more highly skilled players to plug in instead of Raffl, Akeson or Bellemare. Hoping one of these guys sticks is all we have right now.

Hexy was truly handcuffed, and it will take one more cycle (season, trading deadline, draft, free agency) before he can dig his way out.
- TheGreat28

I don't want to forget that Bellemare is 29, so I have any expectation of him, if any at all.

After backreading 4 pages of this thread, I've come to the conclusion that I need to grab a cold brew and head out back to the pool!
- BiggE

Go to the beach. Swarthmore Ave

Most NHL teams don't have a flood of young cheap highly skilled talent to add to the lineup just waiting. If you add one player of that caliber a year, you've done really well. Secondly, the Flyers cap situation will not prevent the Flyers from adding such players. Those type of players will be on EL deals, and the Flyers could easily fit them on the team ithe current cap situation. In fact having a couple of young players on EL deals to plug in would help the cap situation.
And lastly, Holmgren left Hextall with Giroux, Simmonds, Voracek, Read, Couturier, B Schenn, and possibly Laughton. All young quality players. Are those handcuffs fur lined?
- MJL

Agreed. The best do. LA did quite well slotting Toffoli and Pearson into their lineup. Also, as Bill pointed out during the draft, the rich got richer when they drafted Kempe. Chicago has one of the better prospect pools in the NHL. So does Anaheim and Detroit. And Boston has decent talent in the system as well.

Yes, the Flyers cap situation will not prevent them from adding players on EL deals. Their lack of forward prospects or tradeable assets will. There is a reason we all have been debating their ability to sign Hayes today - he is the only legit talent they could acquire without giving up anything.

Unless they are going to trade away a young d prospect for a winger - which I think no one here would advocate at this point, they are more than likely going to have to live with what they got. Vinnie is not going to bring back a talented winger, and they seem reluctant to trade away Schenn or Couturier, who might. I'd seriously consider trading Couturier for a very high return, or Laughton for a more modest return provided it was a very skilled winger with high upside. I still see Laughton and Couturier as occupying the same role - 3rd line center.

And as much as you want to argue that this is not a result of their lack of cap space, I don't agree.

I actually agree with you regarding Vinnie. The problem is their best two wingers, Simmonds and Jake, also play better on the right side. I'm not really qualified to say if either could play on the left, but I don't think you bump either to the 3rd line.

I don't see them ever trying this, but if they kept Vinnie I'm curious about whether this line-up would work:

Simmonds - G - Vinnie
Raffl - Schenn - Jake
Umberger - Couturier - Read

Simmonds game seems more easily moved to the other side than Jake's. I'd worry a little bit about speed and defense with 1st line, but Jagr wasn't exactly Lightning McQueen either and played quite well with Giroux. He could protect the puck better than Vinnie though.

Jake would really complement Schenn, in my opinion. He could carry the puck, let Raffl do some of the dirty work along boards as well. Schenn could occupy the middle and play closer to the net.
- TheGreat28

I would try that combo too. Tbh, I just don't love the forward makeup. I feel that combination would be making the best of a tough situation for Berube.