You may have a case for top-10... 5 is tough.
- Tomahawk

i myself dont think he is top 5. at least i dont think so. its just not there yet. too much time missed of his own.

while i dont think cups are necessary, they certainly dont hurt. finishing with just 1 is a missed feather in the cap

Crosby is a hell of a scorer. No doubt. But what else does he got??? He also choked in the playoffs 2 years in a row. The big stage
- GOA88

What do you mean? What does he need to prove? He is the best play maker in the game. He has shown that he can score goals at a Rocket Richard level. He was criticized about his ability at the dot.. and he just wins faceoffs better than just about anyone. He is incredibly strong and protects the puck better than just about anyone in the league. What else does he need to do? Win a Cup? Win an Olympic Gold?

- stayinthefnnet

I actually would have liked to seen Datsyuk in the 80s, or on those mid 90's Detroit teams.

Wait, I did, it was Sergei Fedorov.

I was excited for him to sign with us. I had cup dreams. Boy was I wrong
- GOA88

Even at the time I felt they should have gone with Bob. I wanted Laviolette fired then, for the way he handled the goalies the year before in the playoffs. I felt he pulled the plug on Bob way too soon. (after one bad period in my opinion) And his decision to go with Boucher and Leighton again was inexcusable.

Even at the time I felt they should have gone with Bob. I wanted Laviolette fired then, for the way he handled the goalies the year before in the playoffs. I felt he pulled the plug on Bob way too soon. (after one bad period in my opinion) And his decision to go with Boucher and Leighton again was inexcusable.
- MBFlyerfan

What do you mean? What does he need to prove? He is the best play maker in the game. He has shown that he can score goals at a Rocket Richard level. He was criticized about his ability at the dot.. and he just wins faceoffs better than just about anyone. He is incredibly strong and protects the puck better than just about anyone in the league. What else does he need to do? Win a Cup? Win an Olympic Gold?
- jak521

1. He doesnt win faceoffs better than anyone in the league by a long shot.
2. He isnt very physical at all
3. Questionable leadership skills
4. Overrated defensively
5. He doesnt need to prove anything, what Im saying is he is the best OFF player in the game, THATS IT, NOTHING ELSE

List of Lindros opponents (I've bolded what I'd call legit "tough guys"):


That's 26 fights. 11 guys I'd call tough guys (you could argue Barnaby and Ulanov, but they were pests). I'm done with this, but just wanted to put it out there.
- jmatchett383

I was at the game in Boston when he pummeled poor Tim Taylor. Lindros had been getting hacked and slashed the whole game. And poor Tim got his stick up and hit Lindros in the face. Big E had enough and pounded the living crap out of Taylor.

1. He doesnt win faceoffs better than anyone in the league by a long shot.
2. He isnt very physical at all
3. Questionable leadership skills
4. Overrated defensively
5. He doesnt need to prove anything, what Im saying is he is the best OFF player in the game, THATS IT, NOTHING ELSE
- GOA88

1. He doesnt win faceoffs better than anyone in the league by a long shot.
2. He isnt very physical at all
3. Questionable leadership skills
4. Overrated defensively
5. He doesnt need to prove anything, what Im saying is he is the best OFF player in the game, THATS IT, NOTHING ELSE
- GOA88

ill definitely give you number one. not better than anyone. but better than most which is an improvement from where he was.

4 is tough. again, he is above average defensively. but not one of the best at it. but most people think he is strictly a one way player. that is incorrect.

I was at the game in Boston when he pummeled poor Tim Taylor. Lindros had been getting hacked and slashed the whole game. And poor Tim got his stick up and hit Lindros in the face. Big E had enough and pounded the living crap out of Taylor.


- MBFlyerfan

That seems to be how a lot of his fights were. He was so tough that teams put a shadow on him, and he got hacked all game long. Eventually, he'd get pushed a bit too far and snap on some poor unsuspecting guy. Which is fine, better than staged fights.

ill definitely give you number one. not better than anyone. but better than most which is an improvement from where he was.

4 is tough. again, he is above average defensively. but not one of the best at it. but most people think he is strictly a one way player. that is incorrect.
- stayinthefnnet

Crosby has become a very complete player. He's worked harder than anyone on his deficiences and at least turned them into at least "non-weaknesses" if not outright strengths. Very incredible player.

i myself dont think he is top 5. at least i dont think so. its just not there yet. too much time missed of his own.

while i dont think cups are necessary, they certainly dont hurt. finishing with just 1 is a missed feather in the cap
- stayinthefnnet

Here are players that I saw play, that I'd no question rate over Crosby

Orr
Denis Potvin
Gretzky
Lemieux
Ray Bourque
Nick Lidstrom
Lindros

So he'd be 8th at best on my list though I would list the following as comparable:

Phil Esposito
Bobby Clarke
Mark Messier
Larry Robinson
Steve Yzerman
Peter Forsberg
Joe Sakic
Scott Niedermayer
Jaromir Jagr

So basically, he goes anywhere from 8th to 18th.

I don't have any goalies on this list, because I'm not sure you can really rate them in comparison to position players.

ill definitely give you number one. not better than anyone. but better than most which is an improvement from where he was.

4 is tough. again, he is above average defensively. but not one of the best at it. but most people think he is strictly a one way player. that is incorrect.
- stayinthefnnet

No, he isnt strictly one way. But if people are going by EA Sports NHL games.... he would be the selke winner every year. Know what Im saying?

1. He doesnt win faceoffs better than anyone in the league by a long shot.
2. He isnt very physical at all
3. Questionable leadership skills
4. Overrated defensively
5. He doesnt need to prove anything, what Im saying is he is the best OFF player in the game, THATS IT, NOTHING ELSE
- GOA88

I think I have to ahead and disagree with some of this.

1. He is a very good at the dot. Not the best, but has really made himself into a very good faceoff guy.
2. Not a tough guy but very underrated from a grit standpoint.
3. His playoff performances over the last two seasons......hmmm
4. He isn't a Selke guy, but I think he is a responsible defensive player.
5. ----

1. He doesnt win faceoffs better than anyone in the league by a long shot.
2. He isnt very physical at all
3. Questionable leadership skills
4. Overrated defensively
5. He doesnt need to prove anything, what Im saying is he is the best OFF player in the game, THATS IT, NOTHING ELSE
- GOA88

He takes tons of draws, and was a 52% guy this past season. 3rd most face off wins in the league.

Win % the past 5 seasons, 52.5, 54.3, 50.1, 55.7, 55.9

Two of those seasons (55.7 and 55.9 he was the second highest in win% among all players with over 600 taken).

2. He is very physical.. just because he doesnt throw huge hits or fight doesnt mean he isnt physical. He is one of the strongest players on the puck I have ever seen.

3. He is a quiet guy.. no doubt there have been some maturity issues, but he has done a fine job the past few years especially dealing with some career threatening injuries in the process. He will continue to mature and will be a captain the rest of his career.

4. He is not Datsyuk or Bergeron.. no doubt.. But he isnt Danny Briere either. He is arguably as good defensively as Giroux.

Crosby has become a very complete player. He's worked harder than anyone on his deficiences and at least turned them into at least "non-weaknesses" if not outright strengths. Very incredible player.
- jmatchett383

List of Lindros opponents (I've bolded what I'd call legit "tough guys"):
Norwood
Beukeboom (no fighting major)
Stevens
Zmolek
Zettler
Reekie
Desjardins
K. Jonsson
Odelein
Zhmelik
Quintal
McSorelyp/b]
Sweeney
Boughner
Barnaby
Ulanov
Pilon
Pilon
Chynoweth
Boughner
T. Gill
R. Niedermayer
Odkick (no fighting major)
S. Webb
Taylor
M. Wilson
Hulse
D. Hatcher
Harvey
Karpotsev
T. Simpson
Whitfield
A. Berg
Wright
Thornton
Doig
Hinote
Jackman

That's 26 fights. 11 guys I'd call tough guys (you could argue Barnaby and Ulanov, but they were pests). I'm done with this, but just wanted to put it out there.
- jmatchett383

I met Bob Boughner a couple of times in Windsor, Ontario, Canada. He and the coaching staff came into a bar called Dirty Jersey's after a big Windsor Spitfire win. I was half looped when I tapped and unsuspecting man "Hey is that Bob Bougher?" The name responded with "Sure is, you should go and say hello." I then ask "Well is he a Richard?" "No he's very approachable" the name said. " Then asked, I'm sorry what's your name?" "Oh, I'm the GM of the Spitfires, Warren Reichel".

Of course I just walked away from Reichel without it clicking that i watched him play for the Aves for years. I then spoke to Boughner about him as a player then what he was currently doing and that he should have been a Flyer...

Where the heck did all this bold come from?

He takes tons of draws, and was a 52% guy this past season. 3rd most face off wins in the league.

Win % the past 5 seasons, 52.5, 54.3, 50.1, 55.7, 55.9

Two of those seasons (55.7 and 55.9 he was the second highest in win% among all players with over 600 taken).

2. He is very physical.. just because he doesnt throw huge hits or fight doesnt mean he isnt physical. He is one of the strongest players on the puck I have ever seen.

3. He is a quiet guy.. no doubt there have been some maturity issues, but he has done a fine job the past few years especially dealing with some career threatening injuries in the process. He will continue to mature and will be a captain the rest of his career.

4. He is not Datsyuk or Bergeron.. no doubt.. But he isnt Danny Briere either. He is arguably as good defensively as Giroux.
- jak521

As much as I like Giroux, I don't think there's an argument. Giroux is a better puck hound, where he chases the puck well on the forecheck as well as anyone. But when it comes to neutral and defensive zone play, Crosby is better.

I met Bob Boughner a couple of times in Windsor, Ontario, Canada. He and the coaching staff came into a bar called Dirty Jersey's after a big Windsor Spitfire win. I was half looped when I tapped and unsuspecting man "Hey is that Bob Bougher?" The name responded with "Sure is, you should go and say hello." I then ask "Well is he a Richard?" "No he's very approachable" the name said. " Then asked, I'm sorry what's your name?" "Oh, I'm the GM of the Spitfires, Warren Reichel".

Of course I just walked away from Reichel without it clicking that i watched him play for the Aves for years. I then spoke to Boughner about him as a player then what he was currently doing and that he should have been a Flyer...

Where the heck did all this bold come from?
- SuperSchennBros

I forgot to unbold after Barrett Jackman.

Go into my quote, and put "[ /b ]" (with no quotes or spaces) after him.

As much as I like Giroux, I don't think there's an argument. Giroux is a better puck hound, where he chases the puck well on the forecheck as well as anyone. But when it comes to neutral and defensive zone play, Crosby is better.
- jmatchett383

G is a better forechecking center, but gets a bit lazy positionally in his own end. Crosby isnt (perfect term) the puck hound G is, but he plays a much smarter/more savvy back checking game.

Here are players that I saw play, that I'd no question rate over Crosby

Orr
Denis Potvin
Gretzky
Lemieux
Ray Bourque
Nick Lidstrom
Lindros

So he'd be 8th at best on my list though I would list the following as comparable:

Phil Esposito
Bobby Clarke
Mark Messier
Larry Robinson
Steve Yzerman
Peter Forsberg
Joe Sakic
Scott Niedermayer
Jaromir Jagr

So basically, he goes anywhere from 8th to 18th.

I don't have any goalies on this list, because I'm not sure you can really rate them in comparison to position players.
- BiggE

I've seen Lidstrom play at least 8 times live. He's not an easy guy to notice even though he's probably on the ice more then anyone else. I say this because he's not flashy like Datsyuk but I'd say he's not easy to notice because A) I'm not a fan of his team and B) he doesn't dish out a booming hit and C) rarely on the ice when a goal is allowed against him. This is just my opinion. He just does his job extremely well.

I forgot to unbold after Barrett Jackman.

Go into my quote, and put "
- jmatchett383[ /b ]" (with no quotes or spaces) after him.

I'm not really that worried about it. lol

Not right now, of course not but if he develops into something resembling what Sean Couturier is becoming, wouldn't he want him in the top 6 in 5 years from now?
- SuperSchennBros

He's a Center. I envision the lineup of the future as having the 1-2-3 punch of Giroux, Couturier, and Laughton down the midle of the lineup. And having the center position as a team strength.

As much as I like Giroux, I don't think there's an argument. Giroux is a better puck hound, where he chases the puck well on the forecheck as well as anyone. But when it comes to neutral and defensive zone play, Crosby is better.
- jmatchett383

Yeah, I wouldn't really look to Giroux as a paragon among backchecking centers.

He's a Center. I envision the lineup of the future as having the 1-2-3 punch of Giroux, Couturier, and Laughton down the midle of the lineup. And having the center position as a team strength.
- MJL

Thats exactly how I see it as well..

Also, I hate the people just assume because a guy is a 3rd line center he will be stuck in a strictly defensive role.