You are right in every aspect of your post. However, due to the fact that Condra is good defensively and creates decent possession time, he ends up getting a lot of offensive chances which he then flubs. That is where I think the frustration comes up. If he doesn't get those chances, I don't think anyone says squat about the guy.
- Gord_Wilson_2.0

i'm still okay with that, cuz if he's getting the chances at one end, it means the opposition isn't getting the chances at the other.

and realistically here, i think this "he can't finish" thing is blown WAAAAYYYYY out of proportion because of a couple of horribly awful missed open nets, that have unfortunately been glorified in gif format. his s%, relatively speaking, isn't that bad.....considering he's a 4th liner.

You are right in every aspect of your post. However, due to the fact that Condra is good defensively and creates decent possession time, he ends up getting a lot of offensive chances which he then flubs. That is where I think the frustration comes up. If he doesn't get those chances, I don't think anyone says squat about the guy.
- Gord_Wilson_2.0

This is probably bang on.

i'm still okay with that, cuz if he's getting the chances at one end, it means the opposition isn't getting the chances at the other.

and realistically here, i think this "he can't finish" thing is blown WAAAAYYYYY out of proportion because of a couple of horribly awful missed open nets, that have unfortunately been glorified in gif format. his s%, relatively speaking, isn't that bad.....considering he's a 4th liner.
- sensarmy_11

I'm in the same boat as you and Tommy. I like what Condra brings. However, say all you want about preventing goals (seems to be the theme of the summer) but you need to be able to score goals as well. Condra's lack of finish may be blown out of proportion, but it's noticed for a reason. I don't think it's a terrible thing. Just incredibly frustrating to watch. With the way the squad is looking this year, everyone is going to have to chip in offensively. We had the luxury of looking to 2 lines for offence the past several seasons. We lost that now and have gone to more of a 4 line team. Everyone will have to chip in.

(Just a general comment, not to you specifically) I like how people say the players on the team have to buy into the 200 foot game and play defence well, but there is no one saying really saying they should play a good 200 foot game and play offence well. You have to have both.

I'm in the same boat as you and Tommy. I like what Condra brings. However, say all you want about preventing goals (seems to be the theme of the summer) but you need to be able to score goals as well. Condra's lack of finish may be blown out of proportion, but it's noticed for a reason. I don't think it's a terrible thing. Just incredibly frustrating to watch. With the way the squad is looking this year, everyone is going to have to chip in offensively. We had the luxury of looking to 2 lines for offence the past several seasons. We lost that now and have gone to more of a 4 line team. Everyone will have to chip in.

(Just a general comment, not to you specifically) I like how people say the players on the team have to buy into the 200 foot game and play defence well, but there is no one saying really saying they should play a good 200 foot game and play offence well. You have to have both.
- Gord_Wilson_2.0

i agree that it's frustrating at times, but my point was simply that those who say we should get rid of condra simply because he doesn't score more are misguided. i don't think they realize how much good he does, and simply focus on the one small negative. would i like him to score more, no doubt, but at the end of the day that's not the main reason he's on the team. if condra was traded, he would be SORELY missed, probably much more than most people realize.

to your 2nd point, i agree 100%

i agree that it's frustrating at times, but my point was simply that those who say we should get rid of condra simply because he doesn't score more are misguided. i don't think they realize how much good he does, and simply focus on the one small negative. would i like him to score more, no doubt, but at the end of the day that's not the main reason he's on the team. if condra was traded, he would be SORELY missed, probably much more than most people realize.

to your 2nd point, i agree 100%
- sensarmy_11

I'm in the get rid of Condra camp - as a 4th liner he doesn't provide the identity we are going for. If we wanted to be exactly like the Red Wings and not react, not innititate and just play skilled hockey he could survive on the 4th line - we are building a team to be big and tough and you need all your 4th line guys to be like that - Smith, Neil and Greening do that, Condra to me doesn't fit the identity we need in that 4th line W spot.

He's a dime a dozen player and can easily be replaced by a bugger, meaner, draw a line in the sand type of player who at least does something everytime they are on the ice (Shawn Thornton, Z. Smith, J. Nolan, Bollig)

You are right in every aspect of your post. However, due to the fact that Condra is good defensively and creates decent possession time, he ends up getting a lot of offensive chances which he then flubs. That is where I think the frustration comes up. If he doesn't get those chances, I don't think anyone says squat about the guy.
- Gord_Wilson_2.0

You're right. Condra's job should be to advance the puck and immediately shoot at the breadbasket. Line change, offensive zone.

I'm in the get rid of Condra camp - as a 4th liner he doesn't provide the identity we are going for. If we wanted to be exactly like the Red Wings and not react, not innititate and just play skilled hockey he could survive on the 4th line - we are building a team to be big and tough and you need all your 4th line guys to be like that - Smith, Neil and Greening do that, Condra to me doesn't fit the identity we need in that 4th line W spot.

He's a dime a dozen player and can easily be replaced by a bugger, meaner, draw a line in the sand type of player who at least does something everytime they are on the ice (Shawn Thornton, Z. Smith, J. Nolan, Bollig)
- tuna99

But the thing is that Condra is better at hockey that most of the guys playing on 4th lines, getting payed similarly. He just is.

I'm in the get rid of Condra camp - as a 4th liner he doesn't provide the identity we are going for. If we wanted to be exactly like the Red Wings and not react, not innititate and just play skilled hockey he could survive on the 4th line - we are building a team to be big and tough and you need all your 4th line guys to be like that - Smith, Neil and Greening do that, Condra to me doesn't fit the identity we need in that 4th line W spot.

He's a dime a dozen player and can easily be replaced by a bugger, meaner, draw a line in the sand type of player who at least does something everytime they are on the ice (Shawn Thornton, Z. Smith, J. Nolan, Bollig)
- tuna99

This entire post is completely ridiculous. What you're saying is exactly what Toronto has been doing with their 4th line. Identity, character and toughness aren't worth squat when you can't clear your own zone and get shelled every night. Speed and skill with/without the puck is what makes players tough to play against. These guys don't have fear, they don't care about 'identity'. Fast, skilled players chew up the tough guys. If you spend all your time trying to make The Big Hitz y quickly find yourself out of the play with a red light on behind you. Just ask Chris Neil, Colton Orr and Jay McClement.

That line of thinking is going extinct along with the Burkes, Carlyles, Poulin and Loiselles. BTW those players you mentioned have been deemed expendable by their very successful teams.

But the thing is that Condra is better at hockey that most of the guys playing on 4th lines, getting payed similarly. He just is.
- amanicom

If he sticks around I think he's a healthy scratch next year, I know what he brings I just don't think it's all that great - he's a 10 minute a night NHL'er that's not that big, doesn't have a mean bone in his body and makes Jody Hull look like a 50 goal scorer.

He's a decent 12/13 forward, but I'd play Greening over him every night of the week

I'm in the get rid of Condra camp - as a 4th liner he doesn't provide the identity we are going for. If we wanted to be exactly like the Red Wings and not react, not innititate and just play skilled hockey he could survive on the 4th line - we are building a team to be big and tough and you need all your 4th line guys to be like that - Smith, Neil and Greening do that, Condra to me doesn't fit the identity we need in that 4th line W spot.

He's a dime a dozen player and can easily be replaced by a bugger, meaner, draw a line in the sand type of player who at least does something everytime they are on the ice (Shawn Thornton, Z. Smith, J. Nolan, Bollig)
- tuna99

you realize that 2 of those 3 guys were the absolute WORST forwards on our team last year. if the identity you're looking for is "bad hockey team", then play those guys.......if you want to win, you don't play those guys.

This entire post is completely ridiculous. What you're saying is exactly what Toronto has been doing with their 4th line. Identity, character and toughness aren't worth squat when you can't clear your own zone and get shelled every night. Speed and skill with/without the puck is what makes players tough to play against. Not fear. These guys don't have fear, they don't care about 'identity'. That line of thinking is going extinct along with the Burkes, Carlyles, Poulin and Loiselles. BTW those players you mentioned have been deemed expendable by their very successful teams.
- Stringer74

Did you watch Ottawa in the playoffs during the Martin years - players and entire teams develop fear - when SJ was up 3-0 on L.A. and L.A. started their comeback Doughty came out and said SJ at the start of game 4 had fear in their eyes and he knew then that L.A. would come back and take the series - so let's not pretend you've never seen Spezza or Heatley bail on a puck against a bigger player - intimidation and fear exist in hockey and are real - if not every team would be 20 Danny Brieres.

I believe your 4th line has to reflect what your team is - call it the 'Identity Line' if you want. Jacques Martin's 4th lines were small and fast guys (Remember Yuha Yullonin for Andre Roy trade and Cherry blasting Ottawa) - and look at L.A. and Bostons 4th lines.

If we were building to be a super skilled and disciplined team then I'm all for guys like Hoffman on the 4th line, but we want to be big down the middle, attack and play rough - you need 4th line guys to do that.

you realize that 2 of those 3 guys were the absolute WORST forwards on our team last year. if the identity you're looking for is "bad hockey team", then play those guys.......if you want to win, you don't play those guys.
- sensarmy_11

everybody was bad last year (except for Turris) - I can't think of a single Ottawa player besides Stone who came in and played 10 consistent games

If he sticks around I think he's a healthy scratch next year, I know what he brings I just don't think it's all that great - he's a 10 minute a night NHL'er that's not that big, doesn't have a mean bone in his body and makes Jody Hull look like a 50 goal scorer.

He's a decent 12/13 forward, but I'd play Greening over him every night of the week
- tuna99

that's the most ludicrous thing i've EVER read.........and THANK GOD you aren't the coach.

the ONLY, and i mean ONLY area that greening was better than condra was in hits. condra was as good or better than greening (and in most cases, SIGNIFICANTLY better) in every other area. same in goals and points, despite getting less ice time and significantly less ES ice time. there is no comparing their defense or possession numbers, it's the biggest landslide in the history of statistical analysis. condra had more blocked shots, is younger, and is signed to a better contract.

anyone, and i mean ANYONE who claims that greening is a more valuable player then condra needs to have their head examined.

Did you watch Ottawa in the playoffs during the Martin years - players and entire teams develop fear - when SJ was up 3-0 on L.A. and L.A. started their comeback Doughty came out and said SJ at the start of game 4 had fear in their eyes and he knew then that L.A. would come back and take the series - so let's not pretend you've never seen Spezza or Heatley bail on a puck against a bigger player - intimidation and fear exist in hockey and are real - if not every team would be 20 Danny Brieres.

I believe your 4th line has to reflect what your team is - call it the 'Identity Line' if you want. Jacques Martin's 4th lines were small and fast guys (Remember Yuha Yullonin for Andre Roy trade and Cherry blasting Ottawa) - and look at L.A. and Bostons 4th lines.

If we were building to be a super skilled and disciplined team then I'm all for guys like Hoffman on the 4th line, but we want to be big down the middle, attack and play rough - you need 4th line guys to do that.
- tuna99

We need a new Chris Neil. We need a guy that is tough as nails and can chip in the odd time.

that's the most ludicrous thing i've EVER read.........and THANK GOD you aren't the coach.

the ONLY, and i mean ONLY area that greening was better than condra was in hits. condra was as good or better than greening (and in most cases, SIGNIFICANTLY better) in every other area. same in goals and points, despite getting less ice time and significantly less ES ice time. there is no comparing their defense or possession numbers, it's the biggest landslide in the history of statistical analysis. condra had more blocked shots, is younger, and is signed to a better contract.

anyone, and i mean ANYONE who claims that greening is a more valuable player then condra needs to have their head examined.
- sensarmy_11

You are actually very lucky, I interviewed to be an assistant coach for Ottawa but when I told them I thought Condra was an expendable piece they looked at me and said "the internet cannot handle thoughts like this, your opinions will drive people insane so we can't hire you"

But I will say, I was very close to getting the job until Condra's name came up.

Did you watch Ottawa in the playoffs during the Martin years - players and entire teams develop fear - when SJ was up 3-0 on L.A. and L.A. started their comeback Doughty came out and said SJ at the start of game 4 had fear in their eyes and he knew then that L.A. would come back and take the series - so let's not pretend you've never seen Spezza or Heatley bail on a puck against a bigger player - intimidation and fear exist in hockey and are real - if not every team would be 20 Danny Brieres.

I believe your 4th line has to reflect what your team is - call it the 'Identity Line' if you want. Jacques Martin's 4th lines were small and fast guys (Remember Yuha Yullonin for Andre Roy trade and Cherry blasting Ottawa) - and look at L.A. and Bostons 4th lines.

If we were building to be a super skilled and disciplined team then I'm all for guys like Hoffman on the 4th line, but we want to be big down the middle, attack and play rough - you need 4th line guys to do that.
- tuna99

Yeah...but those "4th lines" are not what intimidate teams. They are barely on the ice with the game breakers anyway. Those teams (LA and Boston) top 2 lines are what cause pant shi++ing.

You are actually very lucky, I interviewed to be an assistant coach for Ottawa but when I told them I thought Condra was an expendable piece they looked at me and said "the internet cannot handle thoughts like this, your opinions will drive people insane so we can't hire you"

But I will say, I was very close to getting the job until Condra's name came
- tuna99[/b]up.

I smell Bullsh!t.

Yeah...but those "4th lines" are not what intimidate teams. They are barely on the ice with the game breakers anyway. Those teams (LA and Boston) top 2 lines are what cause pant shi++ing.
- Jeropotato

when things aren't going your way and your on the road in a hostile building I don't think Condra is the guy you go out to get momemtum back for your team, or to remind your team of the type of hockey you play.

1st and 2nd lines win you hockey games, 4th lines are there for the coach to put out when he wants to send a message to his team, the opposition, or the opposition coach. What is Condra going to do for you in a situation like that? Swear?

when things aren't going your way and your on the road in a hostile building I don't think Condra is the guy you go out to get momemtum back for your team, or to remind your team of the type of hockey you play.

1st and 2nd lines win you hockey games, 4th lines are there for the coach to put out when he wants to send a message to his team, the opposition, or the opposition coach. What is Condra going to do for you in a situation like that? Swear?
- tuna99

I have no idea, don't watch much Sens hockey.

You are actually very lucky, I interviewed to be an assistant coach for Ottawa but when I told them I thought Condra was an expendable piece they looked at me and said "the internet cannot handle thoughts like this, your opinions will drive people insane so we can't hire you"

But I will say, I was very close to getting the job until Condra's name came up.
- tuna99

well played

I have no idea, don't watch much Sens hockey.
- Jeropotato

Imagine Sam Gagner without the skill or the ability to fight 1-2 a year, and without any leadership ability, and as a winger not a center

Imagine Sam Gagner without the skill or the ability to fight 1-2 a year, and without any leadership ability, and as a winger not a center
- tuna99

Sounds completely useless.....

when things aren't going your way and your on the road in a hostile building I don't think Condra is the guy you go out to get momemtum back for your team, or to remind your team of the type of hockey you play.

1st and 2nd lines win you hockey games, 4th lines are there for the coach to put out when he wants to send a message to his team, the opposition, or the opposition coach. What is Condra going to do for you in a situation like that? Swear?
- tuna99

sure he is. he's the guy who we're gonna send out there on the big PK, or the one we're gonna send out to stop the the other team from getting that tieing goal.

he isn't the guy who's necessarily gonna create momentum for ottawa, but he's the guy who will suck the life out of the other team, and stop them from gaining momentum

Sounds completely useless.....
- Jeropotato

we're on the same page now

when things aren't going your way and your on the road in a hostile building I don't think Condra is the guy you go out to get momemtum back for your team, or to remind your team of the type of hockey you play.

1st and 2nd lines win you hockey games, 4th lines are there for the coach to put out when he wants to send a message to his team, the opposition, or the opposition coach. What is Condra going to do for you in a situation like that? Swear?
- tuna99

I think I'd rather have a fourth line that can... you know... play hockey. Send a message on the scoreboard.