Who gives a poop when he played. He still played those games.
- JVR_42_PK81

Don't give me the face palm emoji if you can't comprehend why back up numbers are different than starting numbers, because if thats the case, then you are the one that deserves a hard and swift

I'm going to pull an Old Spice guy. Look at my post, now look at your team when your starter is playing, now back at this post, now back at your team when your back up is in, now back to me.

Teams play much more conservative and defensively minded hockey when their backup is in, because they know their main guy isn't there to bail them out. They'll cut down on the bolder plays that tend to lead to breaks and quick, flashy goals in favor of staying together as a cohesive defensive unit to block shots and take away offensive chances for the other team in order to help out the guy that they know is not as good as the man they're use to.

Perhaps this isn't the case for a team as pedestrian as the Leafs, but you can bet that it sure as poop is the case with Kings. You think one of the best defensive teams in the league aren't going to rally around their backup when they know that arguably the best net minder in the league isn't there that night to pull a win out of his ass?

Which reminds me of my next point: the Kings are probably the best defensive team in the entire NHL and have been for a while. They're so good that they can make an average league goal tender (seems to be a popular phrase here so I'll use it) look like a stud.

All this is to say, stats aren't everything because there's a million and five different things that can affect them. Just look at Marty Brodeur's numbers. Tell me that guy had an over rated carrier and you, my friend, have just earned yourself another one of these:

Yes the offensive team has won him the cups and the wins. And the leafs defense was horrid this year. Bernier still got .923 save percentage so don't use that stupid excuse.
- JVR_42_PK81

again, this is one year. comparing a goalie who has played 117 to a goalie who has played over 450 games is stupid.

if you want bernier, great for you. If you want Reimer, great. i'll take the goalie i know can win the cup.

Don't give me the face palm emoji if you can't comprehend why back up numbers are different than starting numbers, because if thats the case, then you are the one that deserves a hard and swift

I'm going to pull an Old Spice guy. Look at my post, now look at your team when your starter is playing, now back at this post, now back at your team when your back up is in, now back to me.

Teams play much more conservative and defensively minded hockey when their backup is in, because they know their main guy isn't there to bail them out. They'll cut down on the bolder plays that tend to lead to breaks and quick, flashy goals in favor of staying together as a cohesive defensive unit to block shots and take away offensive chances for the other team in order to help out the guy that they know is not as good as the man they're use to.

Perhaps this isn't the case for a team as pedestrian as the Leafs, but you can bet that it sure as poop is the case with Kings. You think one of the best defensive teams in the league aren't going to rally around their backup when they know that arguably the best net minder in the league isn't there that night to pull a win out of his ass?

Which reminds me of my next point: the Kings are probably the best defensive team in the entire NHL and have been for a while. They're so good that they can make an average league goal tender (seems to be a popular phrase here so I'll use it) look like a stud.

All this is to say, stats aren't everything because there's a million and five different things that can affect them. Just look at Marty Brodeur's numbers. Tell me that guy had an over rated carrier and you, my friend, have just earned yourself another one of these:
- Victoro311

Hmm yes the kings are the reason anyilists have been saying bernier could be that next big elite goalie. And he played on one of the worst defences in the league last year and guess what? He flourished. So you can shut up with the kings defense.

Are you oblivious to the fact that goaltenders have gotten better in this era? The offense has gotten worse. Just look at brodeur hasek potvin those save percentages were the leagues best back then.

And hmm seams funny to me that you think backup numbers are so much different. Bernier's numbers are better as a starter? And let's take a look at fleurys numbers as a backup shall we? .869 are his backup numbers. And if you have a good backup. Your team won't play harder defensivly idiot.

again, this is one year. comparing a goalie who has played 117 to a goalie who has played over 450 games is stupid.

if you want bernier, great for you. If you want Reimer, great. i'll take the goalie i know can win the cup.
- SuperHenderson13

Any fricken starter would of won the cup on Pittsburgh that year.

Any fricken starter would of won the cup on Pittsburgh that year.
- JVR_42_PK81

you dont know that anymore than i do. but thanks for your input.

you dont know that anymore than i do. but thanks for your input.
- SuperHenderson13

It's a safe assumption considering he was playing way below the league average for a starter. You should be hoping you get rid of fleury. That penguins te with a good starter would be a top 3 team in the NHL no doubt.

Hmm yes the kings are the reason anyilists have been saying bernier could be that next big elite goalie. And he played on one of the worst defences in the league last year and guess what? He flourished. So you can shut up with the kings defense.

Are you oblivious to the fact that goaltenders have gotten better in this era? The offense has gotten worse. Just look at brodeur hasek potvin those save percentages were the leagues best back then.

And hmm seams funny to me that you think backup numbers are so much different. Bernier's numbers are better as a starter? And let's take a look at fleurys numbers as a backup shall we? .869 are his backup numbers. And if you have a good backup. Your team won't play harder defensivly idiot.
- JVR_42_PK81

How can you say that when he posted his worst carrier goals against % of his carrier on his lone season as a Leaf and starter? You can't stat geek all day and then use the eye test as some sort of deus ex machina to bail you out of an absurd argument when the stats finally fail.

Also wondering where you got that .869 number from. The only season he was a true back up was in in 2003 in which he posted a .896 sv %, and that was during the Pens laughing stock years. That defense couldn't keep a soccer ball out of the goal. And incase you were wondering, the goalie that saw the bulk of the games that year, Sebastien Caron, he put up a pedestrian .883 sv %, thus helping my point that backups have inflated numbers.

Word of advice: figure it out before you start name calling.

How can you say that when he posted his worst carrier goals against % of his carrier on his lone season as a Leaf and starter? You can't stat geek all day and then use the eye test as some sort of deus ex machina to bail you out of an absurd argument when the stats finally fail.

Also wondering where you got that .869 number from. The only season he was a true back up was in in 2003 in which he posted a .896 sv %, and that was during the Pens laughing stock years. That defense couldn't keep a soccer ball out of the goal. And incase you were wondering, the goalie that saw the bulk of the games that year, Sebastien Caron, he put up a pedestrian .883 sv %, thus helping my point that backups have inflated numbers.

Word of advice: figure it out before you start name calling.
- Victoro311

Have you even been listening to me at all. Oh my god. SAVE PERCENTAGE IS THE BEST WAY TO JUDGE A GOALIE. GAA is mostly a team stat. But as I have been saying this whole frigen time Save percentage is the best way to judge a goalie. I'm not going to say it again.

Have you even been listening to me at all. Oh my god. SAVE PERCENTAGE IS THE BEST WAY TO JUDGE A GOALIE. GAA is mostly a team stat. But as I have been saying this whole frigen time Save percentage is the best way to judge a goalie. I'm not going to say it again.
- JVR_42_PK81

again, that is a completely subjective statement.

and please, we dont want you to say it again. we want you to go far far away from this board.

again, that is a completely subjective statement.

and please, we dont want you to say it again. we want you to go far far away from this board.
- SuperHenderson13

Ok what is your way of judging a goalie? Shall we rewatch each game for each goalie and focus just on them in thier career?

Not sure what you guys are debating, and why, but I think any logical and sane hockey follower would take Bernier in net over Fleury at this point. You guys can throw out all the past accomplishments you want, but it's a what have you done for me lately sport.

Playoffs are another good measurement. Of the 8 times Fleury has been in the playoffs, only 3 times did he have a save% over .900 and only once in the past 5 times. Kind of brutal if you ask me. Not saying Bernier IS better, but I am saying Fleury definitely isn't one of the better goalies in the league anymore. Bernier has the chance to be at least, and for that reason I think Bernier is a better bet as a goalie going forward.

When you have a team as solid as the Pens and you can't win big games anymore, you're not worth a hell of a lot in the league. Again, not saying Bernier is...but Fleury definitely isn't.

Not sure what you guys are debating, and why, but I think any logical and sane hockey follower would take Bernier in net over Fleury at this point. You guys can throw out all the past accomplishments you want, but it's a what have you done for me lately sport.

Playoffs are another good measurement. Of the 8 times Fleury has been in the playoffs, only 3 times did he have a save% over .900 and only once in the past 5 times. Kind of brutal if you ask me. Not saying Bernier IS better, but I am saying Fleury definitely isn't one of the better goalies in the league anymore. Bernier has the chance to be at least, and for that reason I think Bernier is a better bet as a goalie going forward.

When you have a team as solid as the Pens and you can't win big games anymore, you're not worth a hell of a lot in the league. Again, not saying Bernier is...but Fleury definitely isn't.
- systemtool

Exactly. 100 percent agree.

I'm going to pull an Old Spice guy. Look at my post, now look at your team when your starter is playing, now back at this post, now back at your team when your back up is in, now back to me.

Teams play much more conservative and defensively minded hockey when their backup is in, because they know their main guy isn't there to bail them out. They'll cut down on the bolder plays that tend to lead to breaks and quick, flashy goals in favor of staying together as a cohesive defensive unit to block shots and take away offensive chances for the other team in order to help out the guy that they know is not as good as the man they're use to.

Perhaps this isn't the case for a team as pedestrian as the Leafs, but you can bet that it sure as poop is the case with Kings. You think one of the best defensive teams in the league aren't going to rally around their backup when they know that arguably the best net minder in the league isn't there that night to pull a win out of his ass?

Which reminds me of my next point: the Kings are probably the best defensive team in the entire NHL and have been for a while. They're so good that they can make an average league goal tender (seems to be a popular phrase here so I'll use it) look like a stud.

All this is to say, stats aren't everything because there's a million and five different things that can affect them. Just look at Marty Brodeur's numbers. Tell me that guy had an over rated carrier and you, my friend, have just earned yourself another one of these:
- Victoro311

What the hell is this crap? Im not sure a single, coherent, logical, relevant or sane point was made in this extensive diatribe.

As for the bolded part. Just brutal. A for effort, and Im sure you felt like you just scored the Gordie Howe hat trick of HB posts, but that was rather poon.

yeah sorry dude, We have to pay at least 200 bucks for a pair of tickets, so not gonna boycott the games. what do cheap seats in pitt go for? 25 bucks a pop?

The leafs probably have 10x the fan base pittsburgh has, so there are never gonna be empty seats regardless of how they perform on the ice. don't mistake this for not caring/not having the balls to do something. I dont really mind it too much, because i will never have to worry about the NHL/former star players bailing the team out of bankruptcy
- GardinerExpress

I actually miss the 20 dollar a night seats.... i wont argue that the leafs have... and should have... 10x the fans as the pens... it is the countries sport. pens compete with nfl and mlb. it has everything to do with caring and/having balls.

wait


you only pay 200 for A PAIR of tickets?!?!?! WTF!

MAF sucks, he doesn't deserve $1m/yr.

My mom could play for the Pens when they were hot.

Any fricken starter would of won the cup on Pittsburgh that year.
- JVR_42_PK81

even devin dubnyk?

Not sure what you guys are debating, and why, but I think any logical and sane hockey follower would take Bernier in net over Fleury at this point. You guys can throw out all the past accomplishments you want, but it's a what have you done for me lately sport.

Playoffs are another good measurement. Of the 8 times Fleury has been in the playoffs, only 3 times did he have a save% over .900 and only once in the past 5 times. Kind of brutal if you ask me. Not saying Bernier IS better, but I am saying Fleury definitely isn't one of the better goalies in the league anymore. Bernier has the chance to be at least, and for that reason I think Bernier is a better bet as a goalie going forward.

When you have a team as solid as the Pens and you can't win big games anymore, you're not worth a hell of a lot in the league. Again, not saying Bernier is...but Fleury definitely isn't.
- systemtool

I think this post brings us back to the original argument. What the Pens side of the argument has been trying to explain is that saying that the statement "the Pens should make it to the cup finals 4 out of 5 times and if they just had good goal tending they would do this" is a miss statement. The last time the Pens had a cup contending team, it was the 2010-2011 season, during which injuries to Sid and Geno destroyed any hope of winning.

During 2011-2012 our defense was epicly bad, and got exposed during the playoffs. That also happened to be Flower's low point. Last year, as many have tried to explain, the defense once again was not very good, and it literally collapsed against the Isles. Flower got pulled, it sent a message to the team, and the D woke back up (kind of) and Vokoun was able to reap the benefits. Now labeled the "hot" goal tender (and a good portion of that can be attributed to his above average play), it didn't make sense to put Flower back in so he didn't get a chance to redeem himself.

Point I'm getting at is that the Pens have been anything but a complete team since winning the cup, and something border line bizarre has happened each year that has sunk our cup hopes. Thus, it is possible, that if we get our act together and have a solid D backed up by forward depth (which we may actually have this year) Fleury's numbers could improve.

Thus, ignoring salaries, a case can be made for either net minder. If you prefer a guy who's been there before and has the experience, Fleury's your guy as the safe bet. I don't agree with the assessment that he has nothing left in the tank, and no, JVRPhil, not any (frank)ing goal tender could have given us that cup. Most everyone who saw the games agrees that Fleury was one of the key factors in that cup run. Hell, even my Flyers fan friends bow down to '09 playoff Flower.

If what you want is a guy who may have more potential, but hasn't proven anything yet, and you can get over lack of playoff experience, Bernier is your guy. The problem is, that that's a lot more comfortable for cusp teams to stomach. When you're the Pens and the Geno/Sid window is closing, you want some semblance of a speck of certainty. Flower doesn't give you much, but he gives you something, which is more than Bernier has to offer.

Now, factor in salaries, and we have an entirely new argument, one which I don't think MAF has much of an argument for in.

EDIT: and no I didn't feel like I scored a Gordie. I was trying to add some light heartedness because the argument was getting very personal.

even devin dubnyk?
- ChrisMS

In fairness, he did say starter.

I think this post brings us back to the original argument. What the Pens side of the argument has been trying to explain is that saying that the statement "the Pens should make it to the cup finals 4 out of 5 times and if they just had good goal tending they would do this" is a miss statement. The last time the Pens had a cup contending team, it was the 2010-2011 season, during which injuries to Sid and Geno destroyed any hope of winning.

During 2011-2012 our defense was epicly bad, and got exposed during the playoffs. That also happened to be Flower's low point. Last year, as many have tried to explain, the defense once again was not very good, and it literally collapsed against the Isles. Flower got pulled, it sent a message to the team, and the D woke back up (kind of) and Vokoun was able to reap the benefits. Now labeled the "hot" goal tender (and a good portion of that can be attributed to his above average play), it didn't make sense to put Flower back in so he didn't get a chance to redeem himself.

Point I'm getting at is that the Pens have been anything but a complete team since winning the cup, and something border line bizarre has happened each year that has sunk our cup hopes. Thus, it is possible, that if we get our act together and have a solid D backed up by forward depth (which we may actually have this year) Fleury's numbers could improve.

Thus, ignoring salaries, a case can be made for either net minder. If you prefer a guy who's been there before and has the experience, Fleury's your guy as the safe bet. I don't agree with the assessment that he has nothing left in the tank, and no, JVRPhil, not any (frank)ing goal tender could have given us that cup. Most everyone who saw the games agrees that Fleury was one of the key factors in that cup run. Hell, even my Flyers fan friends bow down to '09 playoff Flower.

If what you want is a guy who may have more potential, but hasn't proven anything yet, and you can get over lack of playoff experience, Bernier is your guy. The problem is, that that's a lot more comfortable for cusp teams to stomach. When you're the Pens and the Geno/Sid window is closing, you want some semblance of a speck of certainty. Flower doesn't give you much, but he gives you something, which is more than Bernier has to offer.

Now, factor in salaries, and we have an entirely new argument, one which I don't think MAF has much of an argument for in.
- Victoro311

Yea, not reading this.

In fairness, he did say starter.
- systemtool

he was a starter right? tommy salo?

I think this post brings us back to the original argument. What the Pens side of the argument has been trying to explain is that saying that the statement "the Pens should make it to the cup finals 4 out of 5 times and if they just had good goal tending they would do this" is a miss statement. The last time the Pens had a cup contending team, it was the 2010-2011 season, during which injuries to Sid and Geno destroyed any hope of winning.

During 2011-2012 our defense was epicly bad, and got exposed during the playoffs. That also happened to be Flower's low point. Last year, as many have tried to explain, the defense once again was not very good, and it literally collapsed against the Isles. Flower got pulled, it sent a message to the team, and the D woke back up (kind of) and Vokoun was able to reap the benefits. Now labeled the "hot" goal tender (and a good portion of that can be attributed to his above average play), it didn't make sense to put Flower back in so he didn't get a chance to redeem himself.

Point I'm getting at is that the Pens have been anything but a complete team since winning the cup, and something border line bizarre has happened each year that has sunk our cup hopes. Thus, it is possible, that if we get our act together and have a solid D backed up by forward depth (which we may actually have this year) Fleury's numbers could improve.

Thus, ignoring salaries, a case can be made for either net minder. If you prefer a guy who's been there before and has the experience, Fleury's your guy as the safe bet. I don't agree with the assessment that he has nothing left in the tank, and no, JVRPhil, not any (frank)ing goal tender could have given us that cup. Most everyone who saw the games agrees that Fleury was one of the key factors in that cup run. Hell, even my Flyers fan friends bow down to '09 playoff Flower.

If what you want is a guy who may have more potential, but hasn't proven anything yet, and you can get over lack of playoff experience, Bernier is your guy. The problem is, that that's a lot more comfortable for cusp teams to stomach. When you're the Pens and the Geno/Sid window is closing, you want some semblance of a speck of certainty. Flower doesn't give you much, but he gives you something, which is more than Bernier has to offer.

Now, factor in salaries, and we have an entirely new argument, one which I don't think MAF has much of an argument for in.

EDIT: and no I didn't feel like I scored a Gordie. I was trying to add some light heartedness because the argument was getting very personal.
- Victoro311

victor says to much words

he was a starter right? tommy salo?
- ChrisMS

True. The Oilers of course. Those guys would start Fred Savage and Corey Feldman if they could get away with it.

True. The Oilers of course. Those guys would start Fred Savage and Corey Feldman if they could get away with it.
- systemtool

yeah but at least they would get by with a little help from their friends

I think this post brings us back to the original argument. What the Pens side of the argument has been trying to explain is that saying that the statement "the Pens should make it to the cup finals 4 out of 5 times and if they just had good goal tending they would do this" is a miss statement. The last time the Pens had a cup contending team, it was the 2010-2011 season, during which injuries to Sid and Geno destroyed any hope of winning.

During 2011-2012 our defense was epicly bad, and got exposed during the playoffs. That also happened to be Flower's low point. Last year, as many have tried to explain, the defense once again was not very good, and it literally collapsed against the Isles. Flower got pulled, it sent a message to the team, and the D woke back up (kind of) and Vokoun was able to reap the benefits. Now labeled the "hot" goal tender (and a good portion of that can be attributed to his above average play), it didn't make sense to put Flower back in so he didn't get a chance to redeem himself.

Point I'm getting at is that the Pens have been anything but a complete team since winning the cup, and something border line bizarre has happened each year that has sunk our cup hopes. Thus, it is possible, that if we get our act together and have a solid D backed up by forward depth (which we may actually have this year) Fleury's numbers could improve.

Thus, ignoring salaries, a case can be made for either net minder. If you prefer a guy who's been there before and has the experience, Fleury's your guy as the safe bet. I don't agree with the assessment that he has nothing left in the tank, and no, JVRPhil, not any (frank)ing goal tender could have given us that cup. Most everyone who saw the games agrees that Fleury was one of the key factors in that cup run. Hell, even my Flyers fan friends bow down to '09 playoff Flower.

If what you want is a guy who may have more potential, but hasn't proven anything yet, and you can get over lack of playoff experience, Bernier is your guy. The problem is, that that's a lot more comfortable for cusp teams to stomach. When you're the Pens and the Geno/Sid window is closing, you want some semblance of a speck of certainty. Flower doesn't give you much, but he gives you something, which is more than Bernier has to offer.

Now, factor in salaries, and we have an entirely new argument, one which I don't think MAF has much of an argument for in.

EDIT: and no I didn't feel like I scored a Gordie. I was trying to add some light heartedness because the argument was getting very personal.
- Victoro311

I skimed read this. And if your asking someone if they would take a goalie with a potential to be something elite over someone who is just average and has some expierence. Then potential for something great any day. It's not like your taking a huge risk. He has played 150 games in the NHLA and has proved that the chance he becomes something great is very real. For that reason you pick him.

I think this post brings us back to the original argument. What the Pens side of the argument has been trying to explain is that saying that the statement "the Pens should make it to the cup finals 4 out of 5 times and if they just had good goal tending they would do this" is a miss statement. The last time the Pens had a cup contending team, it was the 2010-2011 season, during which injuries to Sid and Geno destroyed any hope of winning.

During 2011-2012 our defense was epicly bad, and got exposed during the playoffs. That also happened to be Flower's low point. Last year, as many have tried to explain, the defense once again was not very good, and it literally collapsed against the Isles. Flower got pulled, it sent a message to the team, and the D woke back up (kind of) and Vokoun was able to reap the benefits. Now labeled the "hot" goal tender (and a good portion of that can be attributed to his above average play), it didn't make sense to put Flower back in so he didn't get a chance to redeem himself.

Point I'm getting at is that the Pens have been anything but a complete team since winning the cup, and something border line bizarre has happened each year that has sunk our cup hopes. Thus, it is possible, that if we get our act together and have a solid D backed up by forward depth (which we may actually have this year) Fleury's numbers could improve.

Thus, ignoring salaries, a case can be made for either net minder. If you prefer a guy who's been there before and has the experience, Fleury's your guy as the safe bet. I don't agree with the assessment that he has nothing left in the tank, and no, JVRPhil, not any (frank)ing goal tender could have given us that cup. Most everyone who saw the games agrees that Fleury was one of the key factors in that cup run. Hell, even my Flyers fan friends bow down to '09 playoff Flower.

If what you want is a guy who may have more potential, but hasn't proven anything yet, and you can get over lack of playoff experience, Bernier is your guy. The problem is, that that's a lot more comfortable for cusp teams to stomach. When you're the Pens and the Geno/Sid window is closing, you want some semblance of a speck of certainty. Flower doesn't give you much, but he gives you something, which is more than Bernier has to offer.

Now, factor in salaries, and we have an entirely new argument, one which I don't think MAF has much of an argument for in.

EDIT: and no I didn't feel like I scored a Gordie. I was trying to add some light heartedness because the argument was getting very personal.
- Victoro311

I skimed read this. And if your asking someone if they would take a goalie with a potential to be something elite over someone who is just average and has some expierence. Then potential for something great any day. It's not like your taking a huge risk. He has played 150 games in the NHLA and has proved that the chance he becomes something great is very real. For that reason you pick him.