paying 2.3 million for a backup goalie that has "lost all his confidence" according to a few Toronto fans , ISN'T good value at all. Anyone who thinks this is nuts.

Hmm yes the kings are the reason anyilists have been saying bernier could be that next big elite goalie. And he played on one of the worst defences in the league last year and guess what? He flourished. So you can shut up with the kings defense.

Are you oblivious to the fact that goaltenders have gotten better in this era? The offense has gotten worse. Just look at brodeur hasek potvin those save percentages were the leagues best back then.

And hmm seams funny to me that you think backup numbers are so much different. Bernier's numbers are better as a starter? And let's take a look at fleurys numbers as a backup shall we? .869 are his backup numbers. And if you have a good backup. Your team won't play harder defensivly idiot.
- JVR_42_PK81

Bernier's Sv% is better as a starter because he's facing a ton more shots than he did in LA. Notice his GAA has skyrocketed since he's left

What the hell is this crap? Im not sure a single, coherent, logical, relevant or sane point was made in this extensive diatribe.

As for the bolded part. Just brutal. A for effort, and Im sure you felt like you just scored the Gordie Howe hat trick of HB posts, but that was rather poon.
- systemtool

Yet he's right, teams play different when the backup is in.

this past year was the first year bernier was a number 1 goalie and youre already looking at stats like that...

see, ill play this game too.

Cup Wins
MAF 1
Bernier 0

Cup Appearances
MAF 2
Bernier 0

Playoff Games Played
MAF 93
Bernier 1/2

Olympic Teams Made
MAF 1
Bernier 0

Regular Season Career Wins
MAF 249
Bernier 55

Playoff Career Wins
MAF 52
Bernier 0

so... MAF > Bernier

see... i can come up with completely unfair comparisons and stats also.
- SuperHenderson13

hmm completely disregarded the stats that account for individual ability (SV% mainly, GAA secondly) by your argument fleury is better than Rask,Price, Lundqvist, Rinne, and Schneider

Fleury is 4 years older, and has played on a powerhouse team for quite some time. If you would rather take MAF for 5mil, over Bernier at 2.9, at this point in their careers, you are foolish.

All this talk about MAF proving everything. I remember him costing Canada the WJHC, he was a 3rd string goalie on Canada 4 years ago (an afterthought this year) and his playoff performances have been miserable. 93 games played? how many has he been yanked from? How many soft goals has he given up? If the pens had a goalie like Quick/Lundqvist/Miller, they would have won the cup 3 times in the Crosby Era

Also, Bernier has a cup ring with LA, so dead wrong on that one.

One of these guys is 4 years older, and has played on a powerhouse team for quite some time. If you would rather take MAF for 5mil, over Bernier at 2.9, at this point in their careers, you are foolish.

All this talk about MAF proving everything. I remember him costing Canada the WJHC, he was a 3rd string goalie on Canada 4 years ago (an afterthought this year) and his playoff performances have been miserable. 93 games played? how many has he been yanked from? How many soft goals has he given up? If the pens had a goalie like Quick/Lundqvist/Miller, they would have won the cup 3 times in the Crosby Era

Also, Bernier has a cup ring with LA, so dead wrong on that one.
- GardinerExpress

1. We are talking about what goalie is better... as in age and salary arent a factor.
If I had to pick a goalie to have all things considered, Bernier would be more better.

2. I dont know why we are talking about Bernier... the topic was Reimer and MAF

3. If we had an elite goalie who gets paid like an elite goalie... we probably wouldnt have the same team as we did. different story and unfair comparison.

4. I was saying Bernier had 0 because saying he won 1 with LA as a back up where he played 30 minutes really doesnt hold much merit to it when discussing what goalie is better.

Bernier's Sv% is better as a starter because he's facing a ton more shots than he did in LA. Notice his GAA has skyrocketed since he's left
- sbroads24

so facing more shots means he saves a higher percent?

he has more SAVES because he faces more shots, a goalie facing 36 shots a night should have a lower save percentage than a guy that only has to face 22

1. We are talking about what goalie is better... as in age and salary arent a factor.
If I had to pick a goalie to have all things considered, Bernier would be more better.

2. I dont know why we are talking about Bernier... the topic was Reimer and MAF

3. If we had an elite goalie who gets paid like an elite goalie... we probably wouldnt have the same team as we did. different story and unfair comparison.

4. I was saying Bernier had 0 because saying he won 1 with LA as a back up where he played 30 minutes really doesnt hold much merit to it when discussing what goalie is better.
- SuperHenderson13

that doesnt discredit the fact his name is on the cup. should we just put an asterik next to cup winners who are only role players on teams?

so facing more shots means he saves a higher percent?

he has more SAVES because he faces more shots, a goalie facing 36 shots a night should have a lower save percentage than a guy that only has to face 22
- GardinerExpress

Yes his save % is better because he faces more shots. Just like Ryan Miller went from having a .916% on the 30th ranked Sabres facing 34 shots a game, to a .897 Sv% on the playoff bound Blues facing under 25 shots a game.

A team like LA is great at limiting shots, so when Bernier let in 2 goals in LA while only facing 20 shots, his Sv% suffered. When he only lets in 2 goals in Toronto but is facing 30 shots, his SV% looks great. Doesn't mean he's been better or worse in either place

But you have the mighty Dion Phaneuf! How can you not be a defensive style team with the greatest defenseman to ever play the game on the roster?

If I was old man Ruth, I'd trade Crosby, Malkin, and eight 1sts for Dion the Great, but you guys could probably get a better deal for him.
- Victoro311

was this supposed to be funny? your hockey knowledge is pretty limited if you think the leafs are a defensive team. The leafs are about as defensive as Fleury is clutch

Yes his save % is better because he faces more shots. Just like Ryan Miller went from having a .916% on the 30th ranked Sabres facing 34 shots a game, to a .897 Sv% on the playoff bound Blues facing under 25 shots a game.
- sbroads24

what about goalies whose stats improved going from bad to good teams?

Bryzgalov comes to mind,

Ben scrivens went from LA to Edmonton, and his SV% went from 931 to 916

more shots is not a cause for higher save%

I skimed read this. And if your asking someone if they would take a goalie with a potential to be something elite over someone who is just average and has some expierence. Then potential for something great any day. It's not like your taking a huge risk. He has played 150 games in the NHLA and has proved that the chance he becomes something great is very real. For that reason you pick him.
- JVR_42_PK81

For the most part that's true. And right now for each price I'd take Bernier over Fleury. No one is arguing about carriers here, or even that Fleury is good or Bernier is bad. I'm just questioning whether or not, salaries ignored, Bernier is an immediate substantial upgrade over MAF to merit kicking ourselves over.

Sorry that I don't put Bernier in same category of largely unproven goalies that I'd still take over MAF in a heart beat such as Ben Bishop and Steve Mason. Those guys I'd take the gable on. Bernier I want to see more. When you're talking about wasting the Crosby/Malkin window, you have to be very careful what gambles you take.

was this supposed to be funny? your hockey knowledge is pretty limited if you think the leafs are a defensive team. The leafs are about as defensive as Fleury is clutch
- GardinerExpress

Yes it was suppose to be funny. You Leaf fans need to relax. Later on in the convo I actually said that I didn't think the Dion contract was that bad. I just think its funny what the average Leaf fan believes that they can get back in return for Phaneuf.

that doesnt discredit the fact his name is on the cup. should we just put an asterik next to cup winners who are only role players on teams?
- GardinerExpress

what about goalies whose stats improved going from bad to good teams?

Bryzgalov comes to mind,

Ben scrivens went from LA to Edmonton, and his SV% went from 931 to 916

more shots is not a cause for higher save%
- GardinerExpress

Sure it works both ways. But there is a reason why Bernier is letting in more goals as a Leaf than as a King, he's facing a lot more shots than in LA. More opportunities for him to have nights where he has a .966 Sv % by letting in 1 goal on 30 shots

Doesn't meant he's been better or worse in either place. Just different scenarios

yeah sorry dude, We have to pay at least 200 bucks for a pair of tickets, so not gonna boycott the games. what do cheap seats in pitt go for? 25 bucks a pop?

The leafs probably have 10x the fan base pittsburgh has, so there are never gonna be empty seats regardless of how they perform on the ice. don't mistake this for not caring/not having the balls to do something. I dont really mind it too much, because i will never have to worry about the NHL/former star players bailing the team out of bankruptcy
- GardinerExpress

I know the prices of tickets in Toronto are wild, and your fans are hockey crazy. It's awesome. Hockey is religion there. I love that about Toronto. That being said, if you can find me Pens seats for 25 bucks sign me up now. I think you're vastly underestimating ticket prices in Pittsburgh, and the size of the Pens fanbase. This isn't Florida buddy. I don't think you can get seats for cheaper than 90 bucks unless you're doing student rush. Which requires you to be a student, and wait outside literally all day.

what about goalies whose stats improved going from bad to good teams?

Bryzgalov comes to mind,

Ben scrivens went from LA to Edmonton, and his SV% went from 931 to 916

more shots is not a cause for higher save%
- GardinerExpress

At the end of the day your eyes will tell you what a stat sheet won't.

Bernier was the real deal in LA, and is continuing to be the real deal in Toronto.

And Ben Scrivens benefitted from playing on the Kings, and wasn't as effective when he left

If I'm picking between Reimer/Bernier and MAF/Griess... i'll pay the extra 700k and take MAF/Griess.

MAF has proven he can do it but has unfortunately been shot down as the result of poor coaching... neither Reimer or Bernier have proven that they can do it and lead a team in the playoffs. might they be able to? sure. but give me that guy who has already done it.
- SuperHenderson13

Bernier>MAF
Riemer>Griess
5.3mil>6.0mil
Understand??

Bernier>MAF
Riemer>Griess
5.3mil>6.0mil
Understand??
- BoTtLePoLiCe

no but in the time i've been posting here, i've learned that toronto fans are some of the most stubborn fans ever... so i'm not going to bother.

so facing more shots means he saves a higher percent?

he has more SAVES because he faces more shots, a goalie facing 36 shots a night should have a lower save percentage than a guy that only has to face 22
- GardinerExpress

I think you got that backwards.

There is a reason Fluery is the winningest goalie in team history. Your repeated attempts to denigrate him are so easily seen for the bologna it is by people on this site. Riemer? seriously? Like trading in Chara for Kvasha! All that being said... absolutely not on the contract extension.... make his ass earn it.
- ChrisMS

Thats because he played in one of the organizations best stretches--even Barrasso in the 90's wasn't blessed with the run the Pens have had right now in terms of regular season performance. Fleury has proven only that when the light shines brightest, he shrinks the most. Don't believe me? The Game 7 performance against Detroit in 2009 is the exception not the rule. He was awful against Detroit in 2008, with the exception of the 3 OT game 5. Fleury's abysmal play in 2010 vs. the Canadiens is why that series was lost. Fleury was pulled from Game 7! He had a couple of woeful games against Tampa in 2011. In a 7 game series, fix one of those games, how do you think that series turns out? He was horrible against the Flyers in 2012--and yes so was everyone else, but that is NOT an excuse for Fleury to be bad. In 2013, he was so bad against the Islanders, that we turned to Vokoun. In 2014, he had a horrendous game against Columbus, and although he did play well for stretches against the Rangers, he let in a ridiculous goal--right between his legs--early in Game 7. You cant let those kind of goals in during a Game 7. Do I need to remind people of the World Junior defeat Fleury was a part of many years ago? Funny how soft and strange goals allows follow this guy around and appear at the worst possible of times in playoff/post season games.

Id take my chances with Reimer and use the Extra $ to get a top 6 winger that the organization repeatedly ignores.

when in god's name has Jonathan Bernier ever carried to a team?

James Reimer with a 2.88 GAA in the playoffs? sorry, that isnt going to impress anyone.

Toronto's goalies have had the luck of playing under a defensive minded coach for the past couple of seasons... MAF hasnt. Shockingly enough, MAF's best seasons in the playoffs came in the 2 years he played under a defensive minded coaching style.

amazing.
- SuperHenderson13

What now? You think the leafs have been good defensively under RC? I just don't even know how to respond to this.

Yes his save % is better because he faces more shots. Just like Ryan Miller went from having a .916% on the 30th ranked Sabres facing 34 shots a game, to a .897 Sv% on the playoff bound Blues facing under 25 shots a game.

A team like LA is great at limiting shots, so when Bernier let in 2 goals in LA while only facing 20 shots, his Sv% suffered. When he only lets in 2 goals in Toronto but is facing 30 shots, his SV% looks great. Doesn't mean he's been better or worse in either place
- sbroads24

This is a terrible example because under Hitchcock's defensive system, a guy like Brian Elloitt can have the best stats in the league. Miller just didn't play well. He's about the only goalie that hasn't benefitted from playing under Hitchcock.

Facing more shots does not help your numbers. That's ridiculous. If you're not playing well, you'll be killed in a system like Toronto. In fact, under Ron Wilson with the Leafs again being outshot, all Leaf goalies had sub .900 save%. It wasn't until Reimer arrived the numbers were good.

paying 2.3 million for a backup goalie that has "lost all his confidence" according to a few Toronto fans , ISN'T good value at all. Anyone who thinks this is nuts.
- Oneonta Penguin

He's not just a "Back-up" goalie. How many backups have led their team to the playoffs and posted two .920 save % seasons already? To put him next to a typical backup is not fair. 5.2 million for Bernier&Reimer is indeed excellent value.

...Id take my chances with Reimer and use the Extra $ to get a top 6 winger that the organization repeatedly ignores.
- Amanion

They will have to re up Bernier soon, and that's going to cost them at least $5 million per, at which point a $1 million per back up would be more cost efficient.

With the cap, that's how most teams will be going forward with their goalie tandems, the starters getting the loot, and the back ups settling for chicken feed, if you can call a million dollars that.

As for the second line winger, they thought they had that with Clarkson, and it bit them in the rear, so I can understand why they're hesitant. Hopefully, either Nylander has an outstanding camp, or one of the forwards they acquired (Booth, Santorelli, Frattin, Kontiola) in the off season gets off to a good start and earns a chance to play with Lupul and Kadri.

They will have to re up Bernier soon, and that's going to cost them at least $5 million per, at which point a $1 million per back up would be more cost efficient.

With the cap, that's how most teams will be going forward with their goalie tandems, the starters getting the loot, and the back ups settling for chicken feed, if you can call a million dollars that.

As for the second line winger, they thought they had that with Clarkson, and it bit them in the rear, so I can understand why they're hesitant. Hopefully, either Nylander has an outstanding camp, or one of the forwards they acquired (Booth, Santorelli, Frattin, Kontiola) in the off season gets off to a good start and earns a chance to play with Lupul and Kadri.
- The Shrike

Yup. Bernier's next contract, provided he plays well, will be what he and Reiner are making now.

If you pay 1 million though, your chances of having a backup as good as Reimer is not very good.