I think he could make the team and be a top 9 forward. Might not be as a center, but he can move there in time, if not immediately.
- Jsaquella

First line left wing... ROTY???


'Let's go, the bandwagon's pulling out in less than 60.

The problem that comes in is that Geoff Sanderson isn't the only player on the ice, so how can you say he get's out shot consistently when he is on the ice?

Now if instead of just having team data, there was a function that could accurately measure actual data that Geoff Sanderson was responsible and liable for, then it would make sense, and would be a reliable indicator.
- MJL

No. False. You can isolate what happens when Geoff Sanderson is on the ice, and with whom, just as easily as you can speculate how hard he plays or how much he cares.

Whatever one you use is up to you. But saying that Sanderson "is a bad teammate" or "doesn't care" is no more rational or realistic or accurate than anything else. It's nothing more than those phrases have been used longer.

Period.

Yep. There's not a single player that I dislike based on stats alone. Hell there's even guys who have horrible advanced stats I've defended because I felt I saw them play well.
- Jsaquella

Flip side is also true... Hartsy/Hunwick/Zherdev... we'll all been really clear that great stats aren't everything.

First line left wing... ROTY???


'Let's go, the bandwagon's pulling out in less than 60.


- mayorofangrytown

I think a "third" line of him on LW, with Couturier & Read would be a pain in the ass to play against and be a really good two way line

I think a "third" line of him on LW, with Couturier & Read would be a pain in the ass to play against and be a really good two way line
- Jsaquella

Yeah, he probably won't be able to win ROTY in that case plus Ghostisbehere will be in the lineup at some point so that will knock him out right f'n there.

Flip side is also true... Hartsy/Hunwick/Zherdev... we'll all been really clear that great stats aren't everything.
- Tomahawk

That's why I'm not getting involved in the nonsense anymore. It's monotonous.

Yeah, he probably won't be able to win ROTY in that case plus Ghostisbehere will be in the lineup at some point so that will knock him out right f'n there.

- mayorofangrytown

He's a Flyer...no way he wins ROTY

Whatever one you use is up to you. But saying that Sanderson "is a bad teammate" or "doesn't care" is no more rational or realistic or accurate than anything else. It's nothing more than those phrases have been used longer.
- AllInForFlyers

Very true.

Not sure why stats have to be any more airtight and infallible than the old cliches, tropes and conventions that preceded them. Saying one guy is "solid" in some respect is just as up for debate as using an imperfect stat to validate/contradict that point.

No. False. You can isolate what happens when Geoff Sanderson is on the ice, and with whom, just as easily as you can speculate how hard he plays or how much he cares.

Whatever one you use is up to you. But saying that Sanderson "is a bad teammate" or "doesn't care" is no more rational or realistic or accurate than anything else. It's nothing more than those phrases have been used longer.

Period.
- AllInForFlyers

It's not false. You aren't grasping what I'm stating. You can isolate what happens when Geoff Sanderson is on the ice, and with whom. But what can't be done is isolate the data from that shift to just Geoff Sanderson, and nobody else. It is impossible. The data collected when Sanderson is on the ice is team data, not individual data. His linemate could attempt 5 shots on net when Sanderson is out there, where Sanderson never touched the puck, and had no bearing on the play. If no shots were attempted against for that line, Sanderson skates to the bench on a line change with a +5 in shot differential. When he didn't do squat out there.

Very true.

Not sure why stats have to be any more airtight and infallible than the old cliches, tropes and conventions that preceded them. Saying one guy is "solid" in some respect is just as up for debate as using an imperfect stat to validate/contradict that point.



- Tomahawk

They have to be more airtight because of the weight that is given to them by some. As if there is no debate. A stat that is up for debate just as much as a fan saying a player is "solid" isn't very definitive. The whole idea of metrics is to paint a clear statistical picture. And to remove that personal judgement.

I think a "third" line of him on LW, with Couturier & Read would be a pain in the ass to play against and be a really good two way line
- Jsaquella

I'd like to see Read get top 6 minutes. Maybe get back into his offensive game more like his rookie year. The guy might just be our second best sniper behind G to be honest.

I'd like to see Read get top 6 minutes. Maybe get back into his offensive game more like his rookie year. The guy might just be our second best sniper behind G. to be honest.
- hereticpride

I think the biggest issue going forward is one, playing with more discipline, and two becoming a better 5 on 5 team and a better team defensively. If they don't then the Coaching staff is going to have to use Couturier and probably Read in the same manner as last season. Lot's of D zone starts and tough match ups. It's what would give the team the best chance to win. And I think they're in danger with Couturier of at some point, having how the player is used, and the situations he plays in, becoming too big of a factor in what kind of player he develops into.

They have to be more airtight because of the weight that is given to them by some. As if there is no debate. A stat that is up for debate just as much as a fan saying a player is "solid" isn't very definitive. The whole idea of metrics is to paint a clear statistical picture. And to remove that personal judgement.
- MJL

We're all just fans giving personal opinions on players. Whether you go the regular route, or the stats route, (or both), it's all just one person expressing an opinion in the end.

There's no right or wrong to it, just a difference in perspective.

It's not false. You aren't grasping what I'm stating. You can isolate what happens when Geoff Sanderson is on the ice, and with whom. But what can't be done is isolate the data from that shift to just Geoff Sanderson, and nobody else. It is impossible. The data collected when Sanderson is on the ice is team data, not individual data. His linemate could attempt 5 shots on net when Sanderson is out there, where Sanderson never touched the puck, and had no bearing on the play. If no shots were attempted against for that line, Sanderson skates to the bench on a line change with a +5 in shot differential. When he didn't do squat out there.
- MJL

Your point is noted, and again, it's been said: You use the numbers to help solidify how you feel about a player. They are supplemental, not absolute. Nothing in this realm is absolute; people use whatever they feel helps them most to personalize their viewing experience.

I'd like to see Read get top 6 minutes. Maybe get back into his offensive game more like his rookie year. The guy might just be our second best sniper behind G to be honest.
- hereticpride

That'd be awesome, but I feel I'm realistic in my feeling that Berube wants to keep him and couturier together in a primarily defensive role

Your point is noted, and again, it's been said: You use the numbers to help solidify how you feel about a player. They are supplemental, not absolute. Nothing in this realm is absolute; people use whatever they feel helps them most to personalize their viewing experience.
- AllInForFlyers

That's all true. But one of the biggest issues is with confirmation bias. And we've seen a player like Grossmann get falsely criticized as a player by using those stats poorly out of context. Might as well criticize him because he doesn't score enough goals. It's the same thing. You can use them to say pretty much whatever you want about a player in a lot of cases.

That'd be awesome, but I feel I'm realistic in my feeling that Berube wants to keep him and couturier together in a primarily defensive role
- Jsaquella

I would; get them a winger --or if Akeson proves he can keep it -- and make sure that winger helps them to score and prevent goals.

I want Akeson to get a shot, but he's got to get the job done at both ends, on that line.

We're all just fans giving personal opinions on players. Whether you go the regular route, or the stats route, (or both), it's all just one person expressing an opinion in the end.

There's no right or wrong to it, just a difference in perspective.
- Tomahawk

The same goes for a dissenting opinion.

That'd be awesome, but I feel I'm realistic in my feeling that Berube wants to keep him and couturier together in a primarily defensive role
- Jsaquella

i hope we give couturier a chance to play more offense he showed that he's starting to learn how to use his body to protect the puck last season

For the record, my opinion on Akeson: I think he proved that he has the ability to play in the NHL, but I am concerned about his size, if Read is the other winger on that line.

It's tough, because I do want Akeson to get a shot. But at the same time, I don't want Read and Akeson getting physically overpowered on the boards.

i hope we give couturier a chance to play more offense he showed that he's starting to learn how to use his body to protect the puck last season
- 2Real

The fact that he had two fewer points than Schenn in far more difficult a role shows me that if given an opportunity, Couturier can produce pretty solid offensive totals.

I would; get them a winger --or if Akeson proves he can keep it -- and make sure that winger helps them to score and prevent goals.

I want Akeson to get a shot, but he's got to get the job done at both ends, on that line.
- AllInForFlyers

That's why I'd be open to a "fourth" line of Lecavalier, Raffl and Akeson. Let's Vinny play center with two creative guys who have decent speed and who can read the play and find openings. Raffl has shown he can be a solid two way guy, and in the limited exposure Akeson has received, he doesn't look as bad defensively as advertised.

It's hardly a traditional 4th line, but given what they have, it might be effective.

That's why I'd be open to a "fourth" line of Lecavalier, Raffl and Akeson. Let's Vinny play center with two creative guys who have decent speed and who can read the play and find openings. Raffl has shown he can be a solid two way guy, and in the limited exposure Akeson has received, he doesn't look as bad defensively as advertised.

It's hardly a traditional 4th line, but given what they have, it might be effective.
- Jsaquella

I'd run that at the start, see what happens. But I think Raffl's going to play a little higher in the lineup.

Man, I hope Bellemare can play, and that Akeson comes in ready to go and doesn't get blown off the puck. Because I'm so ready to not see Rosehill and Rinaldo for more games than a 13th forward should get.

I rarely do this, but I'm thinking they are gonna give Schenn every opportunity at 1LW, because you cannot have Schenn-Lecavalier-Simmonds defensively.

So that gives you:

Schenn-Giroux-Voracek
Raffl-Lecavalier-Simmonds
Umberger-Couturier-Read

I don't want to even think about that fourth line right now if White and Rinaldo are on it. But yeah, I do think Vinny starts the year at 2C.

I'd run that at the start, see what happens. But I think Raffl's going to play a little higher in the lineup.

Man, I hope Bellemare can play, and that Akeson comes in ready to go and doesn't get blown off the puck. Because I'm so ready to not see Rosehill and Rinaldo for more games than a 13th forward should get.
- AllInForFlyers

Unless Lecavalier looks really bad in camp and in pre-season, it would be a huge mistake to play him on the 4th line. If he's healthy and skating well, he needs to be playing on a scoring line, or it's a waste of the player