I absolutely agree that they shouldn't be the favorites, or even in that kind of conversation.

But I believe that if this team is truly in tremendous skating condition, and is truly committed to sound defensive play, they are a lot closer to resembling a team like the 1999 Dallas Stars than people might realize.

They have absolutely got to skate, do every little thing right. That includes not taking stupid penalties. But if they do that, and Schenn and Couturier do what we all hope they do...man, I'm telling you, they will be a tough out. They truly will be a tough, tough out.
- AllInForFlyers

I agree, no reason why the Flyers can't be a solid playoff team. Certainly there are things that would certainly help, such as Lecavalier bouncing back, and Timonen getting cleared and healthy enough to play.

Clarke and Leach would still beat them at beer pong.

Back in their day, Clarke would have slashed both of them with ping pong paddles and they both would have drank all the beer.
- johndewar

I absolutely agree that they shouldn't be the favorites, or even in that kind of conversation.

But I believe that if this team is truly in tremendous skating condition, and is truly committed to sound defensive play, they are a lot closer to resembling a team like the 1999 Dallas Stars than people might realize.

They have absolutely got to skate, do every little thing right. That includes not taking stupid penalties. But if they do that, and Schenn and Couturier do what we all hope they do...man, I'm telling you, they will be a tough out. They truly will be a tough, tough out.
- AllInForFlyers

re Dallas 1999: At forward and in goal, I can see the comparison, but on D, it's not even close. That Dallas team featured a very talented, deep D group led by Derian Hatcher, Sergei Zubov, Darryl Sydor, Richard Matvichuk and veteran Craig Ludwig. Zubov was one of the top offensive dmen in the league, and Hatcher, who was in his prime, was one of the most physically imposing shut down men in the game.

The Flyers D, as it currently stands, is not even close. Coburn would be the only one on our current roster that could have cracked that lineup.

I agree, no reason why the Flyers can't be a solid playoff team. Certainly there are things that would certainly help, such as Lecavalier bouncing back, and Timonen getting cleared and healthy enough to play.
- MJL

To me, it all rides on Schenn and Couturier -- if Schenn comes in at 25-30 goals and 55-60 points, and Couturier continues to be a defensive monster and comes in at 18-20 goals and 25-30 assists...look out.

I think they're going to try to lock teams down, and if they're committed to it, they have enough pieces to do that. It sure as hell would help if Timonen were back there in playing that style, but if Luke Schenn can just elevate his game to something even close to a shutdown defenseman who doesn't have to be hidden...there's enough pieces there for this team to really make it hard on teams to score.

They just have to be committed to it, because it's a hard way to play and win.

If you made a list of the dirtiest players to ever play in the NHL, clarke would be near the top of the list. No doubt he was talented and a leader for the Flyers.
- sparky

Everybody dirty once in a while

re Dallas 1999: At forward and in goal, I can see the comparison, but on D, it's not even close. That Dallas team featured a very talented, deep D group led by Derian Hatcher, Sergei Zubov, Darryl Sydor, Richard Matvichuk and veteran Craig Ludwig. Zubov was one of the top offensive dmen in the league, and Hatcher, who was in his prime, was one of the most physically imposing shut down men in the game.

The Flyers D, as it currently stands, is not even close. Coburn would be the only one on our current roster that could have cracked that lineup.
- BiggE

Absolutely, it requires players to do more than they have defensively -- as I said, Luke Schenn's got to be better if they have any hope.

But I don't know that Mark Streit's any worse than Darryl Sydor was, and I think Grossmann is exactly what Craig Ludwig was at that stage of Ludwig's career.

Coburn's a good player, and he should easily be able to provide what Matvichuk did.

I certainly acknowledge what Zubov was, and Hatcher was extremely effective in that era.

But if Schenn does take a leap forward and MacDonald/Del Zotto do anything like have a career season...man, it can happen, because Schenn and Del Zotto are still young enough to be better than they have been.

We're due for a defenseman to be better than they have been. It's ridiculous how long it's taken for one effing guy to be better than they should be.

To me, it all rides on Schenn and Couturier -- if Schenn comes in at 25-30 goals and 55-60 points, and Couturier continues to be a defensive monster and comes in at 18-20 goals and 25-30 assists...look out.

I think they're going to try to lock teams down, and if they're committed to it, they have enough pieces to do that. It sure as hell would help if Timonen were back there in playing that style, but if Luke Schenn can just elevate his game to something even close to a shutdown defenseman who doesn't have to be hidden...there's enough pieces there for this team to really make it hard on teams to score.

They just have to be committed to it, because it's a hard way to play and win.
- AllInForFlyers

I don't know if I want to tie a specific number on what success would look like from Baby Schenn and Couturier, but I would certainly like to see "more" and "better".

What that looks like in numbers, who knows......

To me, it all rides on Schenn and Couturier -- if Schenn comes in at 25-30 goals and 55-60 points, and Couturier continues to be a defensive monster and comes in at 18-20 goals and 25-30 assists...look out.

I think they're going to try to lock teams down, and if they're committed to it, they have enough pieces to do that. It sure as hell would help if Timonen were back there in playing that style, but if Luke Schenn can just elevate his game to something even close to a shutdown defenseman who doesn't have to be hidden...there's enough pieces there for this team to really make it hard on teams to score.

They just have to be committed to it, because it's a hard way to play and win.
- AllInForFlyers

While I think they will be a playoff team, and perhaps even win a round, or if Mason gets red hot, 2, I just don't see them as a cup contender at this point. They still need more speed and skill on D and could really use a 35-40 goal scorer in the lineup to get to that level.

Absolutely, it requires players to do more than they have defensively -- as I said, Luke Schenn's got to be better if they have any hope.

But I don't know that Mark Streit's any worse than Darryl Sydor was, and I think Grossmann is exactly what Craig Ludwig was at that stage of Ludwig's career.

Coburn's a good player, and he should easily be able to provide what Matvichuk did.

I certainly acknowledge what Zubov was, and Hatcher was extremely effective in that era.

But if Schenn does take a leap forward and MacDonald/Del Zotto do anything like have a career season...man, it can happen, because Schenn and Del Zotto are still young enough to be better than they have been.

We're due for a defenseman to be better than they have been. It's ridiculous how long it's taken for one effing guy to be better than they should be.
- AllInForFlyers

Sydor was a much better all around player than Streit is today. I agree on Coburn. Grossmann is similar to Ludwig, minus the cup winning experience and Ludwig was a bit smoother with the puck on his stick.

Perhaps if both Schenn and MDZ take huge leaps forward it could happen, but I still think they are at least 2 years away from being a legit contender.

The game is a 100% different now. The Stars won during the clutching and grabbing/obstruction era. Their roster wouldn't win a cup in today's game.

Sydor was a much better all around player than Streit is today. I agree on Coburn. Grossmann is similar to Ludwig, minus the cup winning experience and Ludwig was a bit smoother with the puck on his stick.

Perhaps if both Schenn and MDZ take huge leaps forward it could happen, but I still think they are at least 2 years away from being a legit contender.
- BiggE

At some point, we need somebody on defense to be better than they've shown previously or were projected to be.

Other teams get that, from guys like Mark Giordano to P.K. Subban to James Wisniewski.

We need one of these guys who have NHL experience, who are below 25 years old, to be that. Be better than what people thought you were. In order to win a Cup, one of these guys is going to have to be like Slava Voynov -- more than anybody expected.

The game is a 100% different now. The Stars won during the clutching and grabbing/obstruction era. Their roster wouldn't win a cup in today's game.
- psuhockey

It wasn't as much clutch-and-grab as it became right before the lockout -- that team gets a bit of a bad rap because they were committed to defense while teams like Detroit and Colorado were committed to offense.

They were able to use their hands and sticks more, no question. But they could still skate, with the exception of Ludwig.

At some point, we need somebody on defense to be better than they've shown previously or were projected to be.

Other teams get that, from guys like Mark Giordano to P.K. Subban to James Wisniewski.

We need one of these guys who have NHL experience, who are below 25 years old, to be that. Be better than what people thought you were. In order to win a Cup, one of these guys is going to have to be like Slava Voynov -- more than anybody expected.
- AllInForFlyers

Well, I actually think that Luke Schenn is going to surprise some people and in a positive way! I expect him to come into camp in great shape and end up on the top shutdown pair with Coburn by mid season.

Coburn-Schenn
AMac-Streit
Grossmann-MDZ

However, I still don't see them winning the cup this year, but things are certainly trending in the right direction, IMO

Sydor was a much better all around player than Streit is today. I agree on Coburn. Grossmann is similar to Ludwig, minus the cup winning experience and Ludwig was a bit smoother with the puck on his stick.

Perhaps if both Schenn and MDZ take huge leaps forward it could happen, but I still think they are at least 2 years away from being a legit contender.
- BiggE

Are we comparing Couts to Jere Lehtinen?

The game is a 100% different now. The Stars won during the clutching and grabbing/obstruction era. Their roster wouldn't win a cup in today's game.
- psuhockey

They were a damned good team... probably most akin to the Kings of today. I think it would be a lot tougher for that team to come out of a packed/speedy West, but I imagine if we could reach that far back w/ stats, we might find that team had the puck more often than not.

I could only wish the Flyers were that structurally/tactically sound... there are some interesting parallels in roster composition, though.

Are we comparing Couts to Jere Lehtinen?
- jak521

More like Guy Carbonneau IMO

Are we comparing Couts to Jere Lehtinen?
- jak521

Joe Nieuwendyk....

Are we comparing Couts to Jere Lehtinen?
- jak521

Not exactly, because of the positions they play -- although it's not one-for-one as much as it is based on roster composition and peformance, Couturier's better analog would be Guy Carbonneau and Dave Reid.

Now, granted: Carbonneau and Reid had the benefit of far more experience than Couturier. That's clear, and I don't dismiss that.

But Couturier's youth and ability to put up points is far superior to where Carbonneau and Reid were at that stage of their careers, and Couturier thinks the game as well as those two, IMO.

There's not an exact analog for Lehtinen, who was a unique enough player. But Matt Read does things similar to Lehtinen, and I'd argue that he's a poor man's version of him.

Well, I actually think that Luke Schenn is going to surprise some people and in a positive way! I expect him to come into camp in great shape and end up on the top shutdown pair with Coburn by mid season.

Coburn-Schenn
AMac-Streit
Grossmann-MDZ

However, I still don't see them winning the cup this year, but things are certainly trending in the right direction, IMO
- BiggE

Coburn & Schenn both play RD, I'd rather see Streit or MDZ with him, if it's MDZ than Streit & Schenn could be an adequate pair, as could MacDonald & Schenn

Are we comparing Couts to Jere Lehtinen?
- jak521

More importantly are we comparing Steve Mason to Ed Belfour?

They were a damned good team... probably most akin to the Kings of today. I think it would be a lot tougher for that team to come out of a packed/speedy West, but I imagine if we could reach that far back w/ stats, we might find that team had the puck more often than not.

I could only wish the Flyers were that structurally/tactically sound... there are some interesting parallels in roster composition, though.
- Tomahawk

Yup, that Stars team was very deep, 10 players had at least 30 points and 10 players scored doubled digit goals. Besides the guys on D, they featured Modano, Hull, Nieuwendyke, Lehtinen and Carbonneau up front and Belfour in net.

More importantly are we comparing Steve Mason to Ed Belfour?
- psuhockey

No, but Zach attack Rinaldo compares favorably to an aging Brett Hull.

They were a damned good team... probably most akin to the Kings of today. I think it would be a lot tougher for that team to come out of a packed/speedy West, but I imagine if we could reach that far back w/ stats, we might find that team had the puck more often than not.

I could only wish the Flyers were that structurally/tactically sound... there are some interesting parallels in roster composition, though.
- Tomahawk

I walked it out a little bit; they could play like them if they wanted to, and the Flyers are fast enough to do it, adjusted for the era.

That Stars team wasn't fast. It was fast enough, and they were smart. They had tons of hockey sense and didn't beat themselves.

I'm just making a comparison to what the Flyers could be, if they played well enough. But the roster composition is a lot closer than people might think, IF, I repeat IF, the Schenns and Couturier are consistent from Day 1.

Coburn & Schenn both play RD, I'd rather see Streit or MDZ with him, if it's MDZ than Streit & Schenn could be an adequate pair, as could MacDonald & Schenn
- Jsaquella

I think Coburn plays right D more out of necessity than any other reason. Usually, its offensive dmen that like to play their off side because it allows their forehand shot to fact the net. However, I think Coburn plays his off side because he's the only dman with the speed needed to compensate for always being on his backhand side in the D zone.

I actually think he could be more effective on his natural left side as it will allow him to move the puck up just a bit faster.

More importantly are we comparing Steve Mason to Ed Belfour?
- psuhockey

Love Mason as much as anybody, but I think his legend has steadily grown to out-sized proportions over the summer, lol.